This is topic Best lamp for Elmo GS1200 anno 2017. Also for my Elmo ST1200 and Bauer T610. in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011679
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 22, 2017, 01:03 PM:
Most topics about lamps are from 2013, so I was wondering if there was some change now.
I just bought a brand new looking and serviced Elmo GS1200 in mint condition and I'm as happy as a child.
The lamp that is in this beauty is a Fuji 24V/200W EJL (I believe Cold Mirrored), but to my knowledge this is not the right lamp to go with, since it is also used for 16mm projectors, I believe.
I found a website where I can buy the Fuji ESC lamps, but are this lamps still for the narrow 8mm gate?
Is this still the brightest lamp for a Elmo GS1200?
For my Elmo ST1200 and Bauer T610 I still have a spare Osram Xenophot HLX lamp.
Are those still the brightest for 8mm projectors with 15V/150W?
Philips is also making them now.
Also is Narva making them and that version works for 500 hour.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Are there Xenophot kinda solutions for the Elmo GS1200 too now?
I like the light to be somewhat whiter if possible.
I also did read about a conversion to a HID by someone living in the UK, but I do not dare to send this beautyfull projector away by post.
Some of those guy's are throwing with the boxes.
Is there anyone who can do a conversion like this nearby the Netherlands, like Belgium or Germany, so I could bring the projector myself?
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 22, 2017, 02:38 PM:
The ESC lamp is the one recommended for the GS-1200.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 22, 2017, 05:14 PM:
Maurice is right, the ESC lamp is the correct lamp for the GS, but getting hard to find now this side of the pond, because of the configuration 24V 200W, most common lamp is 24v 250w in this style of projector lamp. You say you have found a website Matthieu that sells these lamps, please let us have the web address....
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 23, 2017, 01:04 AM:
I just ordered 4 of them.
It's in the US:
https://www.replacementlightbulbs.com/lampesc.html
If I add power in my GS1200 is the light of this lamp narrow enough to use it for my GS1200?
Osram HLX 64653 GX5.3 24V 250W ELC A1/259
EAN: 4050300006826
To do it real simple, can I add an extra powersource paralel to the lamp, or do I first cut off the origenal wires.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 23, 2017, 01:27 AM:
be careful when using alternative lamp wattages for the elmo, it will over run the transformer, and may cause premature failure, not an easy thing to come by if at all. I have seen these lamps before, but the reflector is not the same as the Fuji lamp, you may have an incorrect focus through the gate with this lamp, plus these are low lamp hours. Steve osbourne did have some these lamps, the Fuji one's, I thought this might be the site you were referring to....
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 23, 2017, 01:47 AM:
Are the ones I ordered on this site not good?
I'm new here and don't know the names yet, but I'll learn.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 23, 2017, 01:48 AM:
In answer to some other questions you asked there Mattieu, the Osram Xenophot A1 232 lamps are still the brightest and the whitest lamps to be found in the 15v 150w halogen variety.
Other options, including some made by Philips can offer 500 hour run time, but the trade off is that these are nowhere near as bright or white as the Osram Xenophot.
Finally HID lamps like the Xenpow 150w, can I believe, offer near Xenon proportions of lamp power and on screen brilliance for a relatively low cost now, but again they need a Ballast unit to power them which are bulky and cannot be fitted easily inside any Super 8mm machine that I can instantly think of and they also require even further additional modifications such as extra cooling fan(s) and a dowser to avoid burning film frames while the film is motionless inside the powered projector.
Only certain machines therefore lend themselves to this kind of retrofitting and I certainly doubt the Bauer T610 would be among them due to limited space and plastic bodywork throughout.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 23, 2017, 06:46 AM:
I would buy just one, try it out. The reflector on this type of projector lamp is designed to capture as much light as possible and throw it forward, even on xenon projectors, the separate reflector is designed this way, it reflects from the behind and fold back the light from the sides to do the same again, but this would all be wasted if its not focused in the right position at the gate, or somewhere close to the back of the lens....
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 23, 2017, 04:24 PM:
Hmmm, I order 4 already, but I'll compare them to the EJL that's in it now.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 22, 2017, 09:51 AM:
Hello at all!
I am using the Osram 24V 250W HLX over 25 Years in my GS machines. But only with an external Transformer that can give 400W and 0-21,5-24-25V. Very important is setting the Lampholder in the Lamphouse 10mm back. Last Time I diddent use the Osram. I Prefer the 50h Philips Focusline which is much brighter because of a different Mirror. It looks like the old ESC Mirror of the 200W Elmo Lamp only with a 250W Bulb in it. Here are some Pictures of my modification i did many Years ago. Today the Transformer has an Ampere Meter and a Dimer to regulate the Voltage without any steps. Sorry for the dark PicturesI have made with my old Handy. The last Picture shows the actually Transformer switches and the Ampere Meter.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 22, 2017, 11:30 AM:
A very nice addition to this Topic.
The details of the Philips lamp comes in handy too.
What types and numbers are written on your lamp?
I've been searching on the Philips lamps but I get many differend kinds. The numbering on the websites all differ from eachoter with the specs..
Is it the: Philips Focusline Optical 250W 24V GX5.3 ELC or ICT with number 13631 or 13136?
I saw them with 1500Lm 50h and around 900Lm 500h.
Are this lamps as white as the Xenophot? It sais 3400K on all.
I also found this lamp:
https://www.lampdirect.nl/philips-13631-250w-gx5-3-24v
There are more kinds here:
https://www.lampdirect.nl/philips-focusline-fibre-optics
PS. I'm still very jealous of that very nice conversion. ;
[ November 22, 2017, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 22, 2017, 10:25 PM:
Iīm using the Philips Type 13163 ELCA!/259 wich has no facetted Mirror. Drive this Lamp with 25-25,5 Volt and its very bright Light.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 23, 2017, 12:35 PM:
Websites are still not consistend with this.
Is this the EAN Code maybe?
871150040975160
With 850 Lumen.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 24, 2017, 09:06 AM:
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 24, 2017, 09:33 AM:
The correct lamp for a GS-1200 is the ESC which is 24volt 200watt.
The ELC lamp is 24volt 250watt. I would suggest that using this lamp could burn out its transformer.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 24, 2017, 10:16 AM:
I think if you don't project too long at a time, it will survive.
There is a complete converting topic for the GS1200 to add an extra Transformer to it to overcome burning, with good results as on the photo's you see above from Thomas Knappstein.
Thanks Thoms.
I'm going to order to see the difference with the ESC from Donar I have.
Is the lightcolor as white as the Osram Xenophot?
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 25, 2017, 12:51 AM:
The Lightcolor is different. Some of them are very white, others are more yellow. I think that is the Focus Tollerance of the Bulb in the Mirror because this Lamps are made for the 16mm Frame. And setting them 10mm back in the Lamphouse gives more concentrate Light to the Super 8 Frame.
Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on November 25, 2017, 02:11 AM:
Andrew
I was told by the moderators that you had left this forum! Was there a reason?
Anyway good to see you back.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 25, 2017, 03:19 AM:
You really add something to the forum, so I'm glad you are here.
Just to complete the knowledge.
If you use a 16mm projector lamp, you always have to put the lamp back 10mm?
Isn't this also the case for using an EJL lamp, which is often sold for and found in a GS1200? At least that was the lamp I found both times in my GS1200 projectors.
Or does that not work on a EJL?
If so, I find it strange that in the last 15 years or so most GS1200 projectors aren't converted already.
Seems to me, that all projector services should have advertize for this in the past 15 years, when you bring in your Elmo GS1200 for some servicejob.
The origenal ESC lamp is hard to get or very expensive for a long time now.
A missed opportunity I'd say.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 25, 2017, 09:10 AM:
You can use the reflector when they expire to good use and replace it with a much brighter cheaper lamp, HID.....
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 25, 2017, 10:45 AM:
I have 4 Donar lamps, that I dont mind to take away the inside lamp and drill it for a new inside.
Are the reflectors of the Donar ESC the as good as the origenal Fuji's? I was not impressed by the lightoutput of those, since my Bauer T610 has a brighter and whiter lichtoutput with a xenophot of 150W.
Do I Drill out the bottom so I can stick this inside instead?
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 25, 2017, 11:08 AM:
You can do that, but why replace it with a filament lamp, they are not as bright as an HID lamp and the kelvin range is more like 6000,and lower voltage too. You can carefully cut the back out with a diamond wheel, remove the old lamp and replace with anything that will fit. If you are going to do this, the replacement lamp will need to be in the exact same place as the original lamp, to get as much light out as possible. Unfortunately after several attempts to upload photo's to here I gave up trying, seems like too much messing around for me .....
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 25, 2017, 11:32 AM:
When I took Thomas advise and moved the lamp back 10mm, it made a huge difference...brighter and whiter ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
highly recommend it ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Paul
Regarding a HID conversion I had already bought a conversion kit with doing just that a while ago. However where I stopped, was finding a good mirror, although Paul your idea is brilliant, would those ELC, ESC, EJL lamp mirrors discolour as they do with present use?, as there reflective coating did not seem up to the job for long use.....
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 25, 2017, 11:47 AM:
A good point Graham, I have not used this long enough to answer that, but if this happens with the normal lamp, I guess the answer must be yes, you can convert any of this type of lamp reflector to hid, not just the facet type as per the ESC. On a like for like test, this conversion was almost as bright as the two blade beaulieu, with the GS at three blade, at the screen measured, the conversion cost about 30.00 pounds sterling in bits. With the brilliant white light, its a no brainer really. I asked on here if anyone had got a blown ESC lamp and offered to pay the postage so I could do some tests, I had one person respond, and he was in Australia !!!!!!!.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 25, 2017, 12:14 PM:
Thanks Paul...I have not given up with the idea of a HID conversion and still on the lookout for a mirror At one point I was thinking that what they used on old Std8 projectors using a condenser lens etc set up from one of those machines might be the way to go, but I think using a condenser lens would defeat the purpose of the conversion in the first place.
The idea you have of cutting a hole and placing the HID lamp through it, is still the best way to go. I just need to come across a quality mirror with the right angle to concentrate the light onto the gate.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 25, 2017, 12:32 PM:
ellpisoidal reflector, is what the xenon reflector is on the GS, and these the same design, its the most efficient, you get double reflection outward, is that a bull's eye type lens you are referring too Graham ?.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 25, 2017, 02:30 PM:
If the reflector of a Donar ESC is the same (not confirmed yeet) than you can buy those to drill out.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 25, 2017, 02:32 PM:
Yes Paul that would just the thing...just need to find one.
What I find with lamps and mirrors with the 35mm stuff is that you can have all the light in world, but unless you get it concentrated in the right spot it just does not work, small adjustments in alignment can make a huge difference...its tricky stuff
Matthieu..just read your post where do you get them?
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 25, 2017, 03:04 PM:
Graham, these reflectors are used in martin lighting fixtures, and the lamps too, this what inspired my idea behind the discharge lamp. They use bright nickel plated alloy reflectors, that can withstand a 250watt discharge lamp in an enclosed space for a long period of time, but for a bull's eye reflector setup, try the optikinetic solar 250 projector, this has a bulls eye lens and reflector bowl behind to focus the light on an aperture. Matthieu, you can use copper to cut glass with paraffin as a lubricant, but a diamond cutting wheel is just good, with a hobbyist hand grinder, but be careful this is silicate and will shatter without warning, slowly does it....
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 26, 2017, 08:13 AM:
Something I find out is very interesting.
It is the Difference between 250W Lamps of the same Brand.
In one Elmo the Lamp needs only 24,6 Volt to come up to 10,4Ampere.
Another one in another Elmo needs 25,5 Volt to come up to 10,4Ampere. The internal Transformer of the Elmo GS is not able to handle this correct. I have made the best Results with an external dimig Transformer and the Philips 250W ELC 50h Lamp.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 26, 2017, 04:10 PM:
The handling is not differend/better on a GS1200 MKIII, compared to a MKII, or MKI?
The MKIII seems to be more refind.
@ Graham. I bought the Donar ESC lamps here:
https://www.replacementlightbulbs.com/lampesc.html
I've never seen a Fuji ESC in my GS1200 projectors, so I don't know, if they're the same in brightness and whiteness and if it is interessting to use this reflectors for a lamp refirbishing, when you cannot get a Fuji ESC.
Are this the kind of HID lamps which must be put in the GS1200 projector?
Than I must dril a lot more from the ESC reflector, or we need an better reflector.
[ November 27, 2017, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 27, 2017, 07:58 AM:
I added a few things in my last reply.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 27, 2017, 12:20 PM:
Thanks Paul
I will look into it
Mattieu
I bought this conversion kit locally last year with the idea of using it on a GS1200. Up to now its finding the right quality mirror that wont discolour after a while has been the hold up.
I was not convinced to use a ESC for that purpose, as the reflective coating on all those lamps were not made to last in the long run. However what Paul has suggested regarding the Optikinetic Solar projector has me once thinking again.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 27, 2017, 12:41 PM:
35Watt, is this really enough?
If so it can be put in every projector.
I think it is not so expensive to let things chromed.
Not sure if that's last a long time?
Opticinetic projectors like this?
http://www.optifanatics.com/product.aspx?id=6
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 27, 2017, 02:45 PM:
that will give you nearly as much light as the beaulieu, with a three blade shutter, not sure if you can connect this directly to the output supply on the transformer of the GS, as this is designed for a 12v car supply. There is a 55w version too, and the light output of this xenon lamp is like the GS XENON. The key to this working correctly is the lamp position in the reflector, and fixing it correctly. Now the reason why I chose this is simply because you can obtain the fixture for the lamp from most scrap cars headlamp for pennies, and quickly replace it as these are spring loaded. You will need a ceramic sleeve to get the spacing just right. If the transformer output is dc, all would be good if the it can give enough amps, but for the brightness its incredible for 35watt lamp, that costs less than a tenner sterling to replace. The opti uses a m33 lamp with a reflector and bull eye lens ,you can get these on ebay or you can still get the bits from opti still, but check first might be expensive. I use a cctv power supply which is fine, it has multiple outputs, pwm power supply, didn't get too warm when I tested it, and again I say any projector with this setup could be converted. If you want a reflector modifying just send it to me, I can cut the reflector accurately......
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 27, 2017, 04:09 PM:
It's a complete differend road and I have to rethink my goal.
The 24V 250W conversion was only replacing the lamp 10mm and add a new powersuply.
I rather have a projector service doing this for me already.
This HID road is less intens for the powersuply of the GS1200, and probaly easy to add without killing it.
Only the lamp and reflector needs a complete new configuration.
You cannot just use the origenal lampholder to fix the lamp position and go..
The HID 55W gives a more brighter and whiter picture with better colors, and probably less hot. Not sure on that?
But I'm afraid I have to be even more skilled for this conversion.
Is there a projectorservice that does this kind of conversions near the Netherlands?
Maybe I take my wife on a (bring my projector and pick it up afterward) vacation.
Are you doing convertion services like this Paul?
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 27, 2017, 04:49 PM:
Theres still a bit to do Matthieu, I would like to use the GS power supply, but this needs to be dc, and think the output is ac on the tranny, but I have not checked this, I don't think it is rectified. The lamp holder in the gs will be fine because it fits and hold the reflector, its just setting up the lamp position, but I was going to make a little holder for this, just so the glue sets. To get more light you could convert the gs to a two blade shutter, this would increase the light output a fair bit. When I did this test some time back the beaulieu was brighter measured at the screen but not whiter, I think this is 6400 kelvin or 6700 kelvin, can't just remember now, but the overall effect was impressive. This would be plenty bright enough for home cinema use, and you could retro fit this yourself. Graham I have some replica reflectors, GS 1200 XENON, which are the same as the 16mm Elmo XENON. These will be polished to mirror finish and will with me shortly, after sorting some thicker gauge material, but they can also be nickel plated or chrome plated.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 27, 2017, 09:39 PM:
A quick mention regarding AC to DC a while ago I bought a 12 volt relay. I put power to it from a transformer, it just would not work. I took the relay back to the shop where I bought it and said its faulty. The salesmen behind the counter quickly tested it and it worked. Then the penny dropped ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
the relay was 12VDC The transformer out was 12VAC. mmmmm what do I do now, he said this is what you want, a $5 dollar Bridge Rectifier, he drew a discription for me, as to how to connect the 4 terminals up, got home.. BINGO... the relay now works. The one he gave me was a BR106 600V 10A, simply adding that small bridge retifier in the wiring from the transformer, changed the AC to DC.. for only a 5 dollar component...There is the MB354 400V 35A rectifier thats the next one up.
I was so impressed when I bought mine I bought a couple more just as spare.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 27, 2017, 10:18 PM:
This HID Lamps are used in Car Headlamps too. The Lightoutput is not much higher than a 55/60W Halogen Car lamp. It will be working, but with less Light than the 200W ESC Lamp has.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 28, 2017, 01:09 AM:
Given that this was a knock up, " a see if it might work" theory you could be right Thomas. No film has been put through the project to see just how much light gets to the screen after it has gone past the film plain and through the lens. What I do know is the light measured at the screen was more than the esc 200w lamp at the same distance and frame size, what this equates to when film is used I do not have that answer yet, but I will set this up once more to check.....
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 28, 2017, 01:10 AM:
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 28, 2017, 02:22 AM:
One thing I will say for certainty, is that I wont be changing my present Halogen lamp in the GS1200 to HID after moving the lamp back the 10mm lately as Thomas suggested. It made a huge difference and thats something in all these years of owning it I never had.
However I do have another GS1200 and it might be worth trying out a HID conversion on that projector, just to see what happens. If it does not work then that machine will get the halogen lamp refitted but 10mm back.
Here are some specs that came with the HID conversion kit you might find of interest..
Wattage............Halogen... HID
55.......35
Lumens........... 1,330....3,200
Life Expectancy....350hrs..3,000hrs
Efficiency Lm/W....15......100
Colour.............White...Pure White
Colour Temperature..2,400...6,000
Food for thought
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 28, 2017, 03:54 AM:
There was a guy on you tube who had done this conversion Graham, someone uploaded it to here a while back, so that would be interesting to find again, but your post confirms my thought on this conversion, thanks for the post detail Graham.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 28, 2017, 08:05 AM:
Graham 3200 Lumen is not enough.
The ELC 250W gives 10000 Lumen.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 28, 2017, 08:45 AM:
If you are thinking of installing an HID lamp go for the Xenpow HID 150. No need to worry about a separate reflector.
It will need a ballast, an independent fan, and very importantly, some form of dowser as the lamp once switched on must stay that way whilst running films.
https://www.djkit.com/replacement-lamps/xenpow-hid-150-lamp.html
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 28, 2017, 04:48 PM:
The xenpower lamp still uses a ESC type lamp reflector, but as graham has pointed out this fails with the standard lamp of 200 watts fitted to it, how long would it be before this reflector coating was peeling off of going brown. This is not for an amateur at home to fit, its needs a douser, an extra fan to cool it, it has to left on and not switched off, you need to get a ballast or it won't work, given that its much brighter than the 35 watt or 55watt car HID, this can all be done for less than the price of the one lamp, and is bright enough for home use, and cheap enough to replace. If your doing large halls or shows for more than a few people, the xenpower is the way to go, this idea is to allow it to fitted to the less high end projectors and allow others to share almost xenon brightness for a lot less money....
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 29, 2017, 01:06 AM:
The brightness, or lumen levels, of the lights in your home may vary widely, so here's a rule of thumb: To replace a 100 watt (W) incandescent bulb, look for a bulb that gives you about 1600 lumens. If you want something dimmer, go for less lumens; if you prefer brighter light, look for more lumens.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 29, 2017, 01:32 PM:
Hi Paul
I do remember that video but cant find it...its interesting to see on you-tube what people get up to with there film projectors
Maurice
I had a look at that lamp, but not convinced that reflector will last. The conversion kit I bought a while ago was only around the $20-30 dollar mark imported from China. With a colour temperature of 6000K and "pure white" plus given a life of 3000hrs its a cheap Xenon light source alternative.
When I look at some Std8 projectors that are now at least 50 years old, and how the mirrors have lasted, like wise with all slide projectors, those mirrors were made to last even with the heat from eg 500watt lamps.
What I have found in the past with the GS1200, is that even with 200/250watt lamps, two bladed shutter, 1.1 lens, it was still not good enough, and to prove that point I sat my little ST180 with its 3 bladed shutter and cheap 1.3 lens next to the GS, and that little 100watt lamp was still giving me a brighter picture than the GS....so the conclusion I came to is, that more watts are not everything. Its how the light is concentrated on that small gate... thats the key
My aim is to provide a cheap but effective light source that is concentrated only on the gate by a quality reflective mirror.
Well that's the idea
PS Its great to hear Thomas and Paul comments and bouncing ideas around makes life interesting..
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on November 29, 2017, 01:49 PM:
All the comments here make sense in as much as we all have different financial and performance reasons to mod our projectors and any way to improve the light output is appreciated.
My GS1200 HID is up to about 80 hours now with no reflector deterioration at all - ie: it has exceeded the expected life of a standard halogen ESC - are those concerned about the longevity of the reflector sure it is exactly the same as an ESC lamp though? It is the same size but is it the same coating? Also the heat output of the Xenpow HID150 is not a problem with the mod Bill fits as he changes the standard GS1200 fan speed supply to run faster and of course on permanently - when I've visited him and discussed such matters he has always been perplexed why anyone is interested in fitting car headlight HIDs into old ESC reflectors when the Xenpow HID150 is already perfect for the job out of the box - there is still some distance adjustment between the new lamp and gate to be made but it has been used for a long time now by many on GS1200 projectors with not one bad report I have heard of hence I took the plunge too.
Kevin
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 29, 2017, 01:50 PM:
For only the reflector that needs to be drilled,... can we just use a 15V150W Xenophot for that? The reflector is for 8mm film right?
You take the lamp out for replacement, so the rest V/W has no meaning, so isn't the reflector just the same as that of the Fuji ESC.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on November 29, 2017, 02:24 PM:
Don't really understand your upload Matthieu, which lamp are you referring too....
Kevin i'll have the reflector off you when the lamp goes ....
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on November 29, 2017, 03:26 PM:
It's all yours when it goes Paul just another (hopefully) 920 hours left........ most likely I will need to repair the projector for other things before then. I'll probably change it at 800 hours if still igniting as there will be some output drop off by then.
Another reason why I made the HID jump - the price of Xenon lamps for my now sold GS1200 Xenon were becoming farcically high - up up up every time I asked - hence the little HID150 for about Ģ60 is exceptional value Ģ per hour wise and every bit as white and bright as my xenon ever was.
Kevin
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 29, 2017, 04:45 PM:
Hmmm, if the conversion to a 24V 250W focusline still does not make my GS1200 as bright as my Bauer T610 projector with 15V/150W Xenophot,
than a Xenpow HID150 conversion looks very interesting to me as well.
If I don't have to wear sunglasses that is.
It fits in the GS1200 lampholder?
The distance to the gate needs to be enlarged too, but not the same 10mm?
Which Bill does this conversion, and does he life in Europe?
I've read somewhere there was also a danger with a lot of UV by using the HID, anyone?
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on November 30, 2017, 03:40 AM:
Have you checked and thoroughly cleaned your GS1200 lens Matthieu as there may be more to your darker than the Bauer images than just the lamp source.
When I owned Beaulieus and Bauers (610 & 600) they were bright due to a fast picture pulldown allowing the frame longer in front of the lamp and open shutter sector, especially when combined with their Schneider F1.1 lenses.
My GS1200 halogens were about the same in brightness using an Elmo F1.1 lens and twin blade shutter - however once fully stripped and cleaned the brightness, contrast, all picture elements were better on the Elmo so I am wondering if your lens may be slightly fogged internally?
Even just cleaning the rear element (in front of the film gate) can make a huge difference as it is the part of the lens often forgotten about. Just dusting it off is not good enough - a good coated lens cleaner such as Calacoat and soft lint free cloth are needed to fully remove the muck which builds up in this area and is then effectively baked on by the heat from the lamp.
Regarding the HID 150w trust me you won't need sunglasses it is by no means overkill for the tiny super 8 frame size - I project up to 8 feet wide in my home cinema and it is perfect especially with 'scope films - nice crisp whites, excellent sharp edges, and all the other colours look so much more natural and vibrant than with the warm halogen lamps.
It fits into the GS1200 lampholder which is modified as the lamp is hard wired to the HID power supply - the distance is changed a fraction closer to the frame not farther away (I think) will have a look at the weekend if I get the time for a film show.
Bill Parsons is the Elmo specialist in the UK who modified my machine - it was originally one of the last GS1200 projectors ever made - a GS1200 Telecine model with no dowser / five blade shutter / translucent optical block to reduce the light output / playback only (which is fine by me it is my show projector not needed for recording) and an inbuilt 24fps / 25fps quartz synch pulse board which is great for projecting in synch with DVD / Bluray soundtracks.
Bill added a shutter mechanism, fitted all the HID parts, repaired the internal pulse synch, fitted a two blade shutter, and all the roller mods to so I now have a like new GS1200 HID as I call it.
I am very lucky as Bill lives only 30 miles away from me so I see him quite regularly, however his health is not great at the moment and he is unable to take on any projector repair work until his situation improves. He will let us all know when he is better but for now it is best not to contact him just let him recuperate at his own pace.
I think there are others in the UK who can carry out the mod - I am currently modifying my Elmo 16AA in the same way but cannot take on this type of work for others sorry.
Danger from UV I would imagine is only relevant if you run the projector with the lamp cover off or look directly into the light beam. There are some who feel Xenon and HID lamps may affect films due to their brightness but it is not something I've noticed in many years of projecting 8mm, 16mm and more recently 35mm film.
Kevin
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 30, 2017, 09:26 AM:
Thank you for all your info.
I will check the lens.
I have 2 of those 1.1 lenses.
Isn't the picture more stable with the 3 bladeshutter, also for 24fps?
I do have zelfmade films as well, but I can use the Beauer for those.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on November 30, 2017, 03:46 PM:
The 3 blade shutter doesn't make the picture more stable, it just prevents visible flicker when showing at 18 fps or with an extremely bright picture at 24 fps (GS1200 on a 3in preview back projection screen for example)
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on November 30, 2017, 10:11 PM:
If the Picture is unstable the Calwtip and the Sideguides on the Aperture Plate are worn out. Or the Spring Pressure of the Pressing Plate is to less or to strong. It must have about 60g. The Spring Pressunre of the one Sideguide must have about 40g.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on December 01, 2017, 12:59 AM:
Less flicker is what I mean, sorry. (Unstable, why did I use that word to discribe?)
Less flicker is more easy to watch.
If with a 2 blade shutter the 24fps film looks like a 18fps with 3 blade shutter, I'd never use it.
Do most prefer more brightness over less flicker, even when brightness is upgraded whit a 250W lamp or the HID conversion?
I thought of the 2,3 bladeshutter conversion, so I could switch between them to see for myself.
About the faster pulldown in the Beaulieu 708 and Beauer T610 (a very smarth projector I'd say) this is not something the can be changed in the GS1200?
I had the choice between a Beaulieu and the GS1200 when I picked it up (same price), and I choose for the more cinematic look of the GS1200, but now I think I made a mistake.
I wish Bill all the strength to get healthy again.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on December 01, 2017, 01:55 AM:
Matthieu, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by : "If with a 2 blade shutter the 24fps film looks like a 18fps with 3 blade shutter, I'd never use it." With a 3 blades shutter, you can watch without flickering any film at 18 or at 24 fps. You should not have flickering at 24 fps with a 2 blades shutter. You will, instead (otherwise all projectors would have only have 2 blades shutters) have flickers at 18 fps with a 2 blades shutters (the darker the print is, the less flickering you will have and in theory you should not notice flickering if you do a projection on a large screen with the projector at a long distance but I have never tried it so I don't know if that's true)
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 01, 2017, 09:20 AM:
I have converted both my GS1200'S to 2 blade shutters. The increase in brightness is very noticeable. There is no noticeable flicker at 24fps on a normal sized screen with film in the gate, but if you project onto a small screen you can really see flicker at 24fps, even with film in the gate. Flicker is much more apparent if you have the room lights on, or have some daylight in the room.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on December 01, 2017, 03:12 PM:
Ahh, I did not expect it to work this way.
I thought the flicker was more direct, because of a to slow frequency.
So it's the same as with 3D videoprojection with a 3D shutter system? You only see the flicker when there is reference lighting that is stable.
The reflected light from the screen on the ceiling and room is no problem, because it holds the same flicker.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on December 02, 2017, 12:22 AM:
Mathieu, i have two Blade Shutters in all of my GS 1200 and one ST 1200. In the GS they have 45 Grad and in the ST 1200 40 Grad. I play all my full lengh features with the Sound from DVD. So the Elmo runs with 25 Frames/Second. There is no Flicker on the Screen. And at 24F/S there is no Flicker too. The 18 F/S I play on another ST 1200 with the original three Blade Shutter.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on December 02, 2017, 05:42 PM:
I have to go yhat way as well.
I'll check this company in Germany to see if they will do the HID conversion as well and than they can add the 2 blade shutter along with it.
http://www.ffr-film.de/index.php?page=elmo&language=eng
They do sell a 2,3 blade as well. Is someone formilliar with yhat? Is it an easy handling to change it from 2 to 3 and back?
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 02, 2017, 06:01 PM:
The 2/3 blade, when used in 2-blade mode, requires the overlapping of the 3rd blade over one of the other two blades. Presumably this will produce some off balance and vibration of the shutter. Not sure if this is a significant issue or not.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on December 06, 2017, 01:09 AM:
Well I can't thank "Thomas" enough.
Tonight I ran my Fantasia 800ft reel, that included the trl, Soundtrack Demo, Pastoral Symphony, Dance of the Hours, Sorcerer's Apprentice. The extra brightness by moving the 250watt lamp back 10mm made a huge difference. The colors looked fantastic, and what better way to demostrate an improvement than running Fantasia...
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on December 06, 2017, 09:14 AM:
Graham Do you have the two Blade Shutter and the Elmo 1:1,0 Zoom in use? And Try the Philips Type 13163 ELC A1/259 (24V/250W).
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on December 06, 2017, 09:29 AM:
Yes Graham, and while you're doing that, please also sell your Fantasia film to me, hahaha.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on December 06, 2017, 11:34 AM:
Thomas
I made my own two bladed shutter a few years back for this projector and use the Elmo 1.1 lens, I have had this particular GS1200 projector since the mid 1990s. I made a two bladed for it, and that did improve things, but the biggest improvement was moving the lamp back 10mm
I did look at the ESC lamp that later became available. I think it was a Fuji but it only had a life of 25hrs "to short" and that alone plus the price at the time put me of buying one.
I do have another GS1200 and keep that one with its original three bladed for home movies at 18fps. The flicker at 18fps with the two bladed was noticable in light scenes.. the sky etc.
Thomas I will look into the Philips later on, as I still have about twelve of the Osram left. The reason I bought so many Osran 250watt, was because at the cinema we used Osram Xenon lamps and I worked out a special deal with the same importer for the 250watt lamp. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Matthieu.....one day!
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on January 01, 2018, 02:45 AM:
Did you check if the distance was changed closer to the frame with your HID150, Kevin?
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on January 01, 2018, 10:23 PM:
I have another GS 1200 here for repair. There is an Osram 250W ELC Lamp in and the Transformer has 4 Windings more on to push the Voltage. A two Blade Shutter is inside too. This Machine is darker than mine with the Philips ELC Lamp and external Transformer. I think A diming external Transformer regulating from 0 to 26V with The Philips ELC Lamp is the best Way to push the Lightpower on this Projektor. It is a little bit brighter than the original 200W ESC Lamp and cheaper.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 02, 2018, 05:17 AM:
Thomas
Do you think the projector was originally supplied by Elmo with a revised number of windings on its transformer?
Or, has it been modified by an owner/mechanic at a later date?
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on January 03, 2018, 03:02 AM:
Interessting question Maurice.
If it's a MKIII, I might be possible, is it?
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on January 03, 2018, 03:36 AM:
In Film for the Collector Keith Wilton did a comparison of light outputs for various brands and types of lamps in a GS1200. I'll dig it out and post results here soon.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on January 04, 2018, 11:25 AM:
It was not original supplied by Elmo.
The Windings were made by the Owner himself.
In Swich Position High there are 25,5 Volts on the Lamp Socket with lightning Lamp on.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 09, 2018, 05:33 AM:
Is the Ansi Lumen of the Philips ELC 50 Hour lamp changed?
Here it says only 850 Lm.
http://www.dg-lichtshop.de/PH-40975160-ENG
Where can I find the 1500 Lm version of ELC lamps?
[ May 09, 2018, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 14, 2018, 09:35 AM:
I just did a lamp comparison.
I can tell that the 24V200W ESC lamps from this site here (brand is Donar, but it does'n say so on the site) are very dim.
https://www.replacementlightbulbs.com/lampesc.html
I bought 4 of those and threw away my money on that.
I compared it to another 24V200W HXL EJL lamp from Osram, and that lamp was clearly brighter and whiter, only because it is an EJL mirrored lamp, the light has no conformity to the corners of the screen.
If a replacemet of 10mm backwards is also enough to use an EJL HLX, we could use this lamp for a brighter and whiter picture, without a complete transformator conversion.
- Has anyone done a lampholder backwards replacing with this 200W EJL and how much was needed?
Than I tried the just arrived Osram 24V250W HLX ELC lamp, and MAN what a bright and white light is that, and light conformity also not all the way to the corners, but better than the EJL, and this with the lampholder still in it's original space.
So I think that if a ELC need to be replaced 10mm backwards, the EJL probably need 15mm, or even 20mm backwards.
The 200W EJL HLX will than probably be comparable with the origenal Fuji ESC (I assume, cause I never had one), but a bit whiter and cheaper.
This can be achieved without going trough the hustle of an extra transformer conversion.
If you go for the complete transformer adding conversion, I know you'll end up with an even much brighter picture.
And compared to my Donar ESC lamp it's even twice as bright to the eye.
I also bought 2 of the Philips Focusline version of this 24V250W 31363 ELC which seems to be even brighter than the Osram, but I did not yet received those.
Can hardly wait to see that.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on May 14, 2018, 11:20 AM:
For the best Lightoutput you need a two Blade Shutter in your GS 1200 and the Elmo Zoom 1,0.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 14, 2018, 11:46 AM:
Yes I know, but than I need to send my projector away for conversion, cause I cannot do that myself.
If I know someone who can do this and the 24V/250W Transformator conversion, I would bring my projector right away.
I found a company who wanted to do the lampholder conversion, but without the Transformation adding.
A Xenpow 150HID conversion along with the 2 Blade would be even more exciting.
Bill Parson did this conversion before, but that was before I found this 8mm forum.
The best man is retired, so I heared, so now I'm still waiting for a new uprising technician.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on May 14, 2018, 02:23 PM:
Steve Osborne of the reel image has the correct Fuji lamps, and are correct without any movement of lamp to gate distance. The Fuji has one coil more than other lamps of the same voltage and wattage, plus the multi faceted reflector which help focus the lamp. This is plenty bright enough for the three blade gs 1200. Bill's upgrade has certainly caused some ripples amongst the gs owner wanting more light, but unless you are able to undertake the conversion successfully and safely, the Fuji lamp is still very good, even if it has a short life span. The two blade shutter is a good upgrade and will add more light output again, so will the f1.0 lens. You just seem to be going round in circles, four pages later you are no closer to a conclusion, cut your losses and buy the Fuji lamp, its the safest option short term.......
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 14, 2018, 05:02 PM:
You're absolutely right.
I've sorted every possibility out, and still hasetate to drill and cut into my GS1200 MKIII.
I'm going to order an original Fuji ESC, so that I can compare the original lamp myself and at least see the difference myself.
The 1 extra coil can be a quarter of extra bright ess too.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 17, 2018, 07:39 AM:
I just placed an order for the Fuji ESC 24V200W at the Real Magic Store.
Also a 2 Blade Shutter and all sorts of stuff like; Filmguard Film Renew and a lot of film leader.
I hope that the FilmGuard and Renew can be shipped to the Netherlands as well.
In the mean time,...
Looking at the Fuji ESC bulb there, you can see it has facets all over, which helps with focusing the brightness, apart from the extra coil of course.
I also just ordered this lamp as well for comparison.
Philips 13631 24v 250w
8711500410757
It has facets, just like the origenal Fuji ESC has.
See photo.
Anyone already tried this one out?
Because it's not an ESC the lamp should probably be moved backwards, but we shall see.
Before doing that, I really like to see how this compares to the Philips Focusline and Osram, and of course to the origenal Fuji ESC.
A lot of testing.
Cannot wait to see the Fuji myself compared to the Donar ESC.
After that, I'm really curious how much it adds to use a HLX 250W lamps in comparison.
I think the whiter light will be the most offious.
This is actually a lot of fun, only it is a pricey test.
The lamps come from all over.
I have a Spectoradiometer and a colorimeter, so I shall do some testing with those as well.
[ May 17, 2018, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on May 18, 2018, 11:57 AM:
Hi Matthieu!
I have two Sylvania ELC 24V 250W here. They have multfacette Reflector and the 5 Coils in their Bulbs. But The Lightoutput with 10mm back position is lesser than every other Lamp I have ever testet. Only 60 Lux on my Screen. The Philips 13163 with blank Reflektor gives 130 - 140 Lux on the same Screen Size with two Blade shutter and 1,0 Zoom.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on May 18, 2018, 03:44 PM:
I dont have the Fuji ESC yet, and my lampholder is not yet removed 10mm back.
On its origenal place this 250W Facet reflector lamp gives a very even bright light on the screen which is brighter and whiter than the Donar ESC lamp.
Can hardly wait how the Fuji lamp will compare.
The Osram is brighter in the middle but has darker corners, but as we know, this lamp needs the 10mm back.
Not sure if the whole picture than will be as bright as the hotspot it shows now?
Than I know what the end result will be.
For now I'm very interessted to see if this facet Philips lamp would be better than the Fuji ESC, still on the origenal place.
Interesting for people who don't like to move the lampholder.
I also received my order for the Philips Focusline that I ordered from Germany, because we don't have those here.
What I received was a totally differend Blue Phoilips package instead of the Focusline.
I could have bought that here as well and would have saved me the shipment.
I did put those into my GS1200 to compare it with the Osram, but the Osram is a whole lot brighter.
As soon as I receive the Fuji ESC lamps I will setup a whole measuring shootout for all the lamps and post it here.
[ May 18, 2018, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on May 22, 2018, 10:16 AM:
Matthieu, this is brilliant, very helpful, and much appreciated! Looking forward to your findings.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on July 26, 2018, 10:26 AM:
For all who re interested two Pictures of my Conector Box on top of the Elmo with wiring to the internal Transformer and his Wires. This make it possible to use the 24V/250W ELC Lamp with an external Transformer in an Elmo GS 1200. It is absolute save for the internal Transformer.
I have Kevinīs Words in my Brain, dont use a ELC Lamp in an original GS 1200. So here is the Modification. The external Transformer you can by in a Factory who made this or you get one of n old slide Projektor which has two light steps for low and high.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on July 26, 2018, 10:39 AM:
Thank you very much for the additional pictures
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 27, 2018, 01:17 AM:
Still looking forward to Matthieu's definitive comparison review!
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on July 27, 2018, 02:44 PM:
Yes I'm sorry.
I did meassure all sorts of lamps and lost the whole thing, because my laptop was not wired to the adapter which I noticed when the battery was empty and I was to late.
I did put a lot of time into this.
I still want to do this all over again, but need to find some time.
What I can tell is that I was really impressed by the Fuji ESC.
One of the two meassured higher than all the others, with a 3400 Kelvin and very even brightness to all the corners, although the second Fuji ESC was less bright.
I'll come back after doing the whole measuring thing again.
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 30, 2018, 01:36 PM:
In a pinch, knowing that the new Fuji lamps work well is REALLY helpful! And when you have time to redo this sadly lost work, I'm sure many will be grateful.
The ultimate would be a projector modification so the lamp housing could scoot back from its usual position as well as being returned. Of course that would be useful for comparing ELC and EJLs when the light focus is correct.
Thanks for the reply, Matthieu!
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on July 30, 2018, 03:14 PM:
Yes the Osram Xenophot 250W was also the most impressive after the Fuji ESC and probably even better with an extern adapter. In my non converted GS1200 it had a hotspot in the middle with darker corners.
I'm sure replacing the lamp backwards will solve that, like some said before and maybe even best the lesser bright Fuji ESC. This is the best and cheap solution, but need some work, like others have shown as well. The Philips Focusline lamps I receėved where not nearly as bright. The philips Facet lamp was also beautifull even lighted, but it was a 250W and I liked the Fuji ESC better which doesn't need an adapter conversion.
Doing nothing with the projector, will leave you to the Fuji ESC, which is really impressive, although some are better than others. One of the two had 12% less brightness.
A conversion gives you more hours on the lamp for less money.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on August 01, 2018, 09:22 AM:
Now I have tested what Matthieu has said above.
I have cut of a Philips ELC Reflektor and give him a Construction to take a normal two Pin Halogen Lamp 24V 250W. Now I could adjust this Lamp forward and back in the Reflektor for better focusing on this little Super 8 Frame. It works well but sorry not as bright as the original Philips ELC Type 13163. This is the best Lamp for the GS 1200 used by an external Transformer. Setting this Lamp back in the Lamphouse for 10mm and you have a very white bright Light. Here are some Picīs of my Experiance.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 01, 2018, 10:22 AM:
What kind of lamp connector is that Thomas? And what is that little black box thing on the back of it?
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on August 01, 2018, 10:45 AM:
This Lamp Holder is from Wittner here in Germany it is an universal Lamp Holder or GZ 6,35 two pin Lamps.
There is no black box. It is the back Wall of the Elmo Lamphouse chassis.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 01, 2018, 01:31 PM:
Its a m33 lamp, in the Philips reflector, cheaper than the elc 24v 250w standard lamp. Looking at the Fuji lamp some are not lined up correctly and square to the outside reflector, this maybe the cause of the 12% loss of light, but if your prepared to cut the reflector and replace it with m33 lamp, you would be better replacing it with a HID 12v lamp, which is as much a conversion as this is, only cheaper and much brighter and whiter than either lamp. Philips do a long life lamp in this range, 500 hrs and 1000hrs, they are around the same price as the original Fuji lamp, but last much much longer, and they are very reliable on those time figures, as I use them all the time for lighting fixtures, fit them and forget ..........
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on August 02, 2018, 05:53 AM:
What Kind of HID 12V Lamp I must get?
Here in Germany I canīt buy it. And whatīs about the Ballast?
Is there a Flicker on the Screen?
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 02, 2018, 06:44 AM:
Hi Thomas, its a car headlamp upgrade kit, these can be bought on ebay, and they come with ballast, you need a stable power supply which I think you could make yourself, I bought a multi tap power supply that's used for cctv. No flicker on the screen that I could see, checked against the beaulieu it was nearly as bright in my 3 blade gs 1200, if you have a two blade shutter gs then it would probably be closer to it, very bright even white light, I used an old Fuji lamp reflector, and set up a good Fuji lamp against a wall to gauge spot size and even ness at the same distance, this was good enough.
Posted by Thomas Knappstein (Member # 6134) on August 02, 2018, 10:51 AM:
Hi Paul!
I had a look on Ebay, but here in Germany you can only get 35W or 55W Xenon HID Kits but not 100W. It is not allowed here to drive with 100W Xenon in a Car Headlamp.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on August 02, 2018, 02:57 PM:
Hi Thomas, those are the correct one's, I used the 35 watt HID which was the only one available at the time, not sure how much more light output you would get from the 55 watt HID, but in my earlier post I'm referring to the 35 watt HID kits. Believe me this gives as much light as the Fuji and then some more, at 6400 kelvin. The fan in the GS 1200 is probably good enough to cool this setup too, if you could make a stable small power supply perhaps it could be made slim line enough to fit under the elmo between the feet like the xenon......
Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC
UBB.classicTM
6.3.1.2