8mm Forum: Noris Norisound 512 take up reel

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Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on September 25, 2017, 01:10 PM:

Hi people,

I'm quite new to the 8mm word and to this moment I've only participated on the Wolverine scanner forum, although been compiling some material and machinery for the past months.

Past week I put my hands on a very nice, very well treated and in almost mint external state Noris Norisound 512 . It was a nice deal because the owner had treated his machine with great care (it was being sold by their grandson; I suppose he already died time ago) and it was offered with its 510 companion, which it's almost the same, sharing the external casing but with less minor features (i.e. a frame counter) and no "duosplay". This 2nd machine was in a considerable worse shape because the carrying handle is broken and physically torn apart from the casing. It's a shame, because the rest of the machine looks well, too (and the seller assured it worked). I don't discard to try to recover it, but now I'm centering my efforts on the 512.

The problem is on the take up reel: it doesn't spin. Or, well, not most of times. I found a similar thread (http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002899) where the user says it ended working by itself spontaneously. In my case, I dismantled the rear cover and looked at the mechanism while playing and couldn't find any obvious fault: there are two rubber belts, one bigger and wider, and a more little one. None of them is broken and to me they seem in good state. The big one seems connected to the shutter mechanism (?) and it's transferring movement correctly to a little mechanical part which in turn holds the little belt - then this isn't transmitting the movement to the rear reel arm, and I don't understand why.

I dismantled the "broken" model, turned it up and saw exactly the same parts but, in this case, the later was correctly moving. I mean: the little belt this time makes the "snail screw" connecting the arm turn. I attempted to exchange them to see if this was the cause, but after partly removing it from its location on the 512 I abandoned the idea because it looked not so easy. Placed it again on its place and accompained the movement of the snail with my finger, it was a bit hard but I could see the take up mechanism rolling when doing this.

After some accompainment, eventually the piece started turning by itself, behaving erratically for some time. This got better and better progressively, to the extend that I was able to watch a couple of full 60 or 8 m features. During the 1st one I had to be carefull, watching that the spool didn't get stuck, which happened some times. Usually helping it with my hand or alternating a sequence of reverse play (which always works perfectly) and fordward made it work again. I could even watch the second feature from the sofa without keeping attention to the machine because it was working flawlessly.

But on the 3rd attempt, the film got jammed a couple of times and finally broke on what seemed to be a joined splice. Then I attempted it with an old, silent Bela Lugosi B&W reduction I bought from eBay and oh well - I broke it [Frown]

. A very fatal error. It got slit and I didn't make any further attempt until yesterday (a couple of days ago).

This time it was even worse: I attempted playing with a little Tom&Jerry featurette I got from a flea market that was in very nice condition. The rear spool wasn't again working at all. No single movement or sign of life. My bad: I thought that spooling it by hand wouldn't make harm -- but after few seconds the film got trapped, jammed and the film got split [Frown]

, and a frame got trapped in the gate and it got burned! I decided to go to bed although was so bad-humored that I haven't even slept well.

I need some advice on how to get this into a working state. Do you think cleaning it may help? The machine is very clean itself and looks very new, so I doubt this is the problem. Could it be any dried capacitors that make the motor lose power? Could it be that the belts are in fact wasted, although unnoticeable to the eye?

Also any tips on how to avoid those film breakings / jams and if it's possible to "repair" them are welcome... I'm opening a new thread for that, I have a couple of little splicing machines that came on this pack, but never used them, the "duck tape" that comes with it seems that has past its "best before" date by far, and I don't know if there is a "more delicate"/professional way of gluing the filme (maybe with acetone?), and I don't know if it's better to cut off and getting rid of the "jammed" film parts or if it's a way to successfully "iron" them and/or reintegrate into the rest of the reel...

Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on October 24, 2017, 06:13 PM:

Hey people, I still need your help. It's been two months ad I didn't attempt any further messing with the machine (until now). Out of frustration, I dismantled the casing again and took a couple of videos.

The condition has even worsened, as just the rear reel arm is spinning and only in reverse mode:

https://youtu.be/0bBPCgKrysk

The front arm stillness could be due to the belt having lost tightness, but I doubt it because the previous time it spontaneously started working by just playing a bit with it...

https://youtu.be/ZqxnbG7x7G4

I'm sure someone has experienced something like this and could give me some hints. Maybe it could be some exploded capacitor, making the motor lose power? Maybe a relay??

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 24, 2017, 09:06 PM:

Hi Pere,

I don't know this particular machine, but generally speaking the reel arms on projectors need to have some kind of clutch, since the mechanism driving them is fixed speed but the reels need to change in speed as the amount of film they hold changes.

If I'm interpreting your problem correctly, maybe the clutch on your takeup is slipping rather than grabbing.

-there should be some adjustment for this, maybe a screw passing through a coil spring.

Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on January 09, 2018, 05:30 PM:

About a couple of months I "solved" this problem. I put in between brackets because it works but I don't feel confident enough about the strength of the belt which feeds the rear worm.

The thing is that I was browsing through the forum and ended in a thread about a film scanner created by Janice Glesser. It contained a link to a youtube video with a scan test I ended watching. And guess what... After it ended, the next video started playing... and on the very 1st frame what looked exactly like the take-up reel worm mechanism of my machine!

This is the link to the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WawT_ufuOY&list=UUzhVuBJou11ziWdERi0ZGuQ&index=66

It seems that the Bell&Howell 33st it's almost like my Noris Norisound 512 on its internals. Well, my machine is not stereo but "dualplay", but the mechanism that can be seen on the video looks exactly the same, and both machines seem to suffer from the same problem.

First of all I dismantled the worm gear. Instead of sanding the interior of the axis... I sanded the metal axis instead! As you may guess, it was a very slow process. But after many hours of delicate work I happened to have an even sanding of a few ¿microns? that, after some lubing with proper silicone oil, seem to spin very lightly. What I did this? Because it felt very hard to sping by hand touch (almost impossible with the finger), and my broken 510 companion was considerably "lighter", much more easy to make it spin with a finger, and oh, when turned on the take-up reel was properly functioning.

Well, I wasn't happy enough with this as I didn't see it spinning freely enough when mounted back again. So I ended dismantling also the top cover gear. And, as you could guess, this ended like a minor disaster: the inner, smaller e-clip keeping everything in place was broken, and I had no replacement. Also, between the central axis and the small space left between it and the hole there was a set of very little steel balls kept in place only by a washer, acting as a very basic kind of bearing. I cound 15 balls but they were so tiny I couldn't be sure if one or two could had been lost... As maniatical as I am, I decided to disassemble the 510 analog mechanism to a) get an e-clip replacement and b) count the amount of little balls and take some from there in case of need. All in all that machine couldn't ever be repared, so I decided to salvage it for replacements...

In the end, the amount of balls was right, but when putting the pieces back I lost a couple of them from the Norisound 510. And I ended using this worm gear in place of the one I delicately sanded...

After this, the machine has been working. Although the belt for the worm gear seems loose. And the one inside the take-up arm, transmitting the movement from the gear to the reel holder, it's so deformed that the movement is not even, decreasing and making a great acceleration suddenly for half a second or so when the cycle reaches the deformed excentricity.

Anyway... This is just to inform that Bell&Howell 33st and Noris Norisound 512 seem to share design on their internals, and also to thank you Janice one more time. Will try the #20 o-ring for the internal belt. Also would be great to find a replacement for the arm's belt, too.

By the way: does anyone have an idea on where to find those tiny bearing-like steel balls?

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