8mm Forum: Best choice for laurel and Hardy reprints?

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 13, 2017, 12:30 PM:

If you could have a brand new print of a Laurel and Hardy film on super 8, if you had the chance to ... what would be you're pick?

My choice would be "BRATS", as, every print I have seen on Super 8 has been from an apparantly fuzzy and dupey looking print, (mind you, I have opnly seen the Blackhawk super 8 prints of this). it's one of the very few Blackhawk super 8 L & H shorts that is really fuzzy and hard to focus.

You're choices, ladies and Gentleman? [Smile]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 13, 2017, 12:52 PM:

For me it would have to be The Music Box: it's kind of the Classic among Classics.

-or how about Laughing Gravy, but the full version? (The Blackhawk print doesn't actually make it all the way to the end!)

There's something wonderful about Blackhawk L&Hs: whenever I'm in the mood for a "new" one I just look on E-bay. Most of the time there's one I don't have yet! It couldn't have been this easy to get them 40 years ago.

-as long as I can tolerate the...variable image quality. My own beloved The Music Box is two 400 footers spliced and the difference at the splice is very noticeable.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 13, 2017, 02:07 PM:

Blackhawk's LAUGHING GRAVY is the complete American version. The version you see today was put together with an out-take filmed for foreign versions.

I know this is a Super 8 forum, but all 16mm Blackhawk L&Hs that I've seen are very sharp, including BRATS.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 13, 2017, 02:40 PM:

That's a good thought.

I just got my first 16mm machine. In the interest of keeping it simple, I want to be mostly a dabbler in 16mm, but I could imagine getting a couple of 16mm Blackhawk L&H's.

I've seen a lot of really beautiful classic black and white 16mm at CineSea: that's where I'd like to take this.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on November 13, 2017, 03:35 PM:

On Super 8 Kodak stock? - NIGHT OWLS, only because mine is a bit grainy - Then again, so is a silo - Shorty

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on November 13, 2017, 03:53 PM:

For a complete LAUGHING GRAVY you have to find the third reel,which comes from the Spanish version (and is in Spanish!)

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 13, 2017, 08:08 PM:

Steve,

Once you start to dabble, you will be hooked. So beware! [Smile]

If you really want the best looking L&Hs in 16mm, you need to look for Film Classics originals, or even better, print-downs. This is a topic in itself. Blackhawks are easier to find in good condition and you should be perfectly happy with them.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 13, 2017, 09:01 PM:

This is so true!

15 years ago I figured I'd shoot a couple of rolls of Kodachrome then maybe go back to model trains!

-then look what happened!

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 14, 2017, 08:09 PM:

TWICE TWO is a particularly bad printing -- at least my copy is. It looks like it was made in Eastin and Phelan's bathtub. BE BIG and THE FIXER UPPERS are pretty bad, too. It would be nice to have all 3 in better printings without having to upgrade to 16mm. For features, WAY OUT WEST could have been better.

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on November 17, 2017, 01:13 PM:

All of them. Super 8 is very cost-efficient for home use, but pretty much anything Blackhawk put out in the 8mm formats were murky. I’ve invested in buying most of my Blackhawk library in 16mm in order to benefit from better resolution and it has paid off.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 17, 2017, 07:14 PM:

I have some excellent L&H Blackhawk Super 8 and Standard 8 in my collection. Off the top of my head:
COUNTY HOSPITAL
PERFECT DAY
PUTTING PANTS ON PHILIP (almost all of the L&H silents look great)
THE MUSIC BOX
TOWED IN A HOLE

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on November 17, 2017, 08:41 PM:

Our family really like blockheads.
The scene with the stairs, and the football and such.
Plus the missing leg scene. Great movie all around!

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 17, 2017, 08:42 PM:

How about Blotto, one of the funniest L&H's that I have seen.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 18, 2017, 06:55 PM:

BLOTTO is one of my favorites. I once had a Super 8 Blackhawk that had fine picture quality, but was splicy. I upgraded it to a Films Classics 16mm.

CHICKENS COME HOME is another one I have in Super 8 that has mediocre picture quality. This is another good choice for a reprint.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 18, 2017, 10:42 PM:

There are excellent Super 8 sound L&H Blackhawks, with a little luck you will find them.

I had a perfect S8 sound of Chickens Come Home. There are excellent prints of Dirty Work out there too. Don’t despair.

If there are two Super 8’s that deserve an upgrade are for their original titles are The Music Box and The Chimp.

The transitions in The Music Box, diagonally slide giving the appearance of walking a staircase and makes the film more appealing, memorable, and reminiscent in the plot of climbing steps.

The Chimp with original titles were printed by Film Preservation Associates, owned by the late David Shepard. Shepard bought the Blackhawk collection and took over the reigns and released preserved editions of Blackhawks material.

Shepard restored the original MGM titles of The Chimp from a 16 Canadian neg. The main title visual transition by tearing open as if a circus performer would break through a circus hoop. The gag titles are also corrected and restored in their proper order.

Shepard's prints from Film Classic Associates are generally very good, when the lab work varied, or was poor they were receptive to returning for a reprint.

David restored Pack Up Your Troubles to it's complete length, and cleaned up the sound to bell clear quality.

Someone should release the updated The Battle of The Century. A more extant version has been circulating in special venues that includes more action in the 2nd reel than the extended version that Blackhawk released in the late '70's.

Habeas Corpus and We Faw Down should be restored to include the original Vitaphone scores and several missing scenes to make each of these films more complete.

Hog Wild may be grainy and Brats is a tough one to find that’s not printed light. Sometimes the Standard 8mm sound prints are better.

Collectors have told me that their S-8 prints of Blockheads are disappointedly soft.

I started with the 16’s of the L&H’s when I wanted to fill the gaps in titles that were missing from my Super 8 collection and John Black told me that although that you may not be in the market for a title, when an L&H comes your way, to pick it because eventually you will become a completist for their 40 sound shorts.

Joseph made a good point about the Blackhawks and you will be perfectly happy because when it comes to 16’s it can also be a mixed bag, and 16’s of Film Classics are not always perfect.

There was a company named: Walter Reade and their company also released L&H from the Film Classics Library. Their prints were Light, dupey and sometimes the sound was not good.

I've only seen one Walter Reade that had merit, The Midnight Patrol, the soundtrack was better than the Blackhawks.

I don't know why the background track on Midnight Patrol is printed faintly because you can barely hear LeRoy Shield's music that was standard on the early L&H’s. Otherwise the print quality on Blackhawk’s Midnight Patrol is very good. The Janus films release is more of a print down quality.

I have a Blackhawk of Chickens on 16mm, that's taken from what appears to come from a 35mm fine grain, and it’s outstanding. I’ve seen Film Classics of Chickens that Joseph spoke about and it’s excellent as he mentioned, but look out for the Blackhawk 16 that’s from the better material, it’s outstanding.

For some unknown reason, Film Classics mis-titled the main title as Chicken Come Home, and not Chickens Come Home.

As an L&H aficionado I’ve liquidated all in 8mm for 16’s. I kept some 8’s in the event of downsizing.

Regarding Night Owls, there was a company: Library Films and they had an excellent neg on 16.
I've seen a 16mm Library films release on Brats and it was very good.
The Library Films of Thicker Than Water, you miss the final gag as Ollie pulls the transition closed on the The End title.

Hog Wild and Brats must have been re-printed numerous times, and the picture neg may have been resized during the silent to sound period.

I have a 1947 Film Classics print on Hog Wild. With the exception of some marks, it’s the sharpest picture and sound quality, this side of the Janus film 16’s from 1980’s.
This print rings with best of CD quality, that all prints that we know today sound E.Q’d in comparison.

I also have a Blackhawk of The Bohemian Girl, printed in 1964. This print has excellent picture and sound track. The 1600’ reels are printed in 20 minute sections spliced together, apparently how it was released on the original neg, because the sound track has CD quality sound too.

The Blackhawk on Our Relations and Swiss Miss are superb.

In 1975 Blackhawk printed an outstanding print of Way Out West. The main title card is a Blackhawk with the thick white letters against a black background, and the following titles are original, but what makes this print terrific is that it comes from the fine grain material. The detail is phenomenal especially when noticing the varying seams of fabric on Stan’s overcoat, as he’s brushing off Ollie’s suit while in the water pond for the first time.

Buy from someone reliable, because there are prints that are being dumped from libraries.

MGM The Chimp Titles

[ November 19, 2017, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Michael De Angelis ]

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on November 19, 2017, 08:11 AM:

Yeah, we all know about Battle - Shorty

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on November 19, 2017, 08:43 AM:

All of the above - plus all the ones not mentioned [Smile]

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on November 19, 2017, 08:44 AM:

Them Thar Hills with Tit For Tat are my favorites

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on November 19, 2017, 09:20 AM:

The Derann reprints despite the blue tint from using colour stock where miles better than any of the grainy Blackhawks. Them thar Hills ,Tit for Tat ,Below Zero Chumps at Oxford , Sons of the Desert, Way out West and Music Box being the best. I had a great copy of Chickens come Home but unfortunately using a dodgy film cleaner helps it develop even growing brown blotches 💩💩so eventually had to bin it.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 19, 2017, 10:29 AM:

I have always found that the Super 8 sound releases of the Boys by Walton Films are pretty good.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 19, 2017, 03:41 PM:

I like the Walton releases, sadly cut a little. I once bought a Blackhawk print from Regent Films in Blackpool. I had to return it faulty

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 19, 2017, 09:24 PM:

Collectors may appreciate these titles with the additional scenes restored on the following:

The Second Hundred Years

The Hoosegow

Men O’ War

Pack Up Your Troubles

Restore the picture quality on The Music Box as Steve mentioned.

Restore the print quality on The Sons of The Desert,
include the two cuts that were removed from the original feature.

A release of The March of The Wooden Soldiers / Babes in Toyland, and to include the original titles and cave scenes.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 20, 2017, 01:52 PM:

Michael,

What scenes need to be restored on?

THE SECOND HUNDRED YEARS
THE HOOSEGOW
SONS OF THE DESERT

Thanks

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 21, 2017, 01:08 AM:

The hoosegow has a brief scene when they run for lunch there’s some dialog with the chef.

Check out this link that explains the Second Hundred Years film:
https://thelostlaugh.com/tag/the-second-hundred-years/

I constructed this video to show the comparison with the jump cut and the completed scene of the boys in the lodge.

https://vimeo.com/243792120

Let this play out, and then the second video will repeat with the same scene that fills the jump cut with the "Excuse me" dialog that's missing from the Blackhawk.

The last edited clip shows you Charlie Chase telling Mae: "you little organ pumper you,"
which is edited out of Film Classics neg that Blackhawk used.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 22, 2017, 10:57 AM:

Thanks Michael for the detailed information.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 22, 2017, 11:09 AM:

I wouldn't mind finding that Derann print of "Sons of the Desert"

Could anyone who has it put up a review of it and, if possible, some screenshots?

Posted by Jorma Julku (Member # 6015) on November 22, 2017, 02:11 PM:

PARDON US! Definitely!
Viva Stan and Ollie!

Posted by Daniel Macarone (Member # 5102) on November 22, 2017, 05:30 PM:

My picks would be Babes In Toyland and Flying Deuces, but they're very hard to find unedited. I wouldn't buy a feature print that has any scenes cut. I once saw a Babes In Toyland rare 90 minute version for sale, but couldn't afford it.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 22, 2017, 11:20 PM:

Osi,

That Sons release is abridged.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 23, 2017, 04:47 PM:

BABES IN TOYLAND has a running time of 79 minutes. Anyone advertising a 90 minute version must have been mistaken.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 24, 2017, 07:03 PM:

How about FRA DIAVOLO and BONNIE SCOTLAND due to their rarity? I can attest to the excellence of Red Fox's printing on the former.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on November 24, 2017, 10:12 PM:

I have the Red Fox releases of The Devil's Brother and Bonnie Scotland printed on B&W stock, they're beautiful and they include the full main titles and MGM Lion.

Fra Diavolo the same with the alternate main title, is not from a USA neg,
they're out there on the 16mm market and have become available on eBay. I have one from a Canadian neg.

Some 16's of the complete feature are found from a neg titled: Bogus Bandits.

The Bogus Bandits neg has also been released with the Devils Brother titles, that are either spliced on, or printed as a whole without the MGM Lion.

The TV cuts from The Devils Brother, surface on eBay separately as:
CRY BABIES,
EASY COME EASY GO,
IN TROUBLE.

Bonnie Scotland is available on 16 as an original (difficult to find) or reduction prints.
Separate titles of 16 TV cut are:
ALL WET
IN A MESS
THE ROOKIES
BANG! BANG!

There is a 16 trailer of Bonnie Scotland titled: Heroes Of The Regiment.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 25, 2017, 01:29 PM:

Reprint criteria:
- Rarity
or
- Commonly found prints today have less than satisfactory picture quality
or
- Commonly found prints today are incomplete

Add UNACCUSTOMED AS WE ARE with sound. This is very rare and hard to find, though I do have a print.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on November 28, 2017, 07:24 PM:

If reprints in Super 8 became a reality, which is highly unlikely, the cost would surpass the price of a used 16mm print in most cases. Just something to think about in this fun thread.
[Smile]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on January 08, 2018, 12:03 AM:

Here's a great looking Blackhawk 16 on Chickens Come Home,with the best neg material of 35mm quality.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on January 09, 2018, 01:28 PM:

Yes that looks like a gem of a print. Let's see how much it sells for.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on January 15, 2018, 11:32 AM:

$127.50 -- how much would a new Super 8 print cost today?

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on January 15, 2018, 11:34 AM:

Derann released Brats in Super 8.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on January 15, 2018, 07:09 PM:

Joseph,

I guess the best way to measure the cost of a Super title is to compare the price of a similar length Super 8 film from Phil S. or Steve O.

Film Preservation Associates / The Blackhawk Films Collection owned by David Shepard founded in 1986 and closed in 2007. 16mm Three reelers as Chickens Come Home were selling for close to $300. USA.

In 1986 David sold L&H 8mm sound titles as: Tit for Tat for $56.00. US dollars, and the 8mm line was discontinued shortly thereafter for a lack of response, the market continued with restored 16mm titles from the Blackhawk collection.

Early on David provided an option to purchase 16mm titles on Triacetate or Polyester film stocks. The 16mm restored Pack Up Your Troubles sold in U.S. dollars for: $550. and $1100. for Polyester prints.

[ January 15, 2018, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Michael De Angelis ]

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 16, 2018, 10:02 AM:

...and there you have it - Shorty

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 16, 2018, 10:49 AM:

I bought a 2 reel of Dirty work, L+H new on polyester from them and it was 15% more than the acetate,$205 at the time in 2005 06 I think.

It was nice but was slightly lacking compared to usual stock.

Full features were the same extra 15% when I bought mine.

Best Mark

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