8mm Forum: Two Bad Ideas

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 12, 2017, 11:50 AM:

Sometimes even the most brilliant engineering ideas can destroy companies. Here are two prime examples in our own world of cine:

First up, Pathe's 1957 4.75mm, so called widescreen, system. They tried to copy double 8mm by splitting 9.5mm. The problem was that despite the advertising hype it wasn't wide screen, and operating the projector was a nightmare:

Sales were miniscule, and Pathescope were bankrupt soon after this debacle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGfv_Ub5XfY

Next up, the Polavision instant movie system, the idea of the brilliant scientist Dr. Edwin Land of Polaroid. The sytem gave you two and a half minutes of color film that was processed in the TV type projector in about 3 minutes.

The problem was that the system used an additive color process that produced an image so dense that it could not be projected on normal 8mm projectors. The little TV screen was as big as you could get, and even that needed two halogen lamps focused on the gate. But the real killer was that there was no way that anyone who had seen 8mm Kodachrome would take a second look at this sytem, the picture quality was pretty bad. Plus super 8mm already had sound when this came out and Polavision was silent.
Eumig went bankrupt almost immediately and Polaroid stock took a huge beating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exuJ8TSJGQ0
The moral of this story is that clever engineers, operating without thorough marketing research and support, can get companies into a heap of trouble! [Big Grin]

[ December 12, 2017, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Paul Adsett ]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 12, 2017, 11:59 AM:

When I was in business school Polavision was actually a case study we used. First of all it was how companies headed by very successful entrepreneurs often follow them right over a cliff. (Ref: Ford Motor Company circa late 1920s) Dr. Land was passionate about Polavision, even though his marketing people told him that even given complete success the entire home movie market wasn't worth the investments they were making. The second half of this was all about timing: home VCRs and video cameras were either on the way or already there: it never had a chance.

I like the Pathe Monaco: it looks like a robotic lobster! [Wink]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 12, 2017, 02:32 PM:

And Pathescope never did learn, for instance, what about the Princess 9.5mm projector.
https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co8084897/pathescope-princess-9-5mm-cine-projector-projector

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 12, 2017, 03:14 PM:

The incredible thing is Maurice, that one of these Princess projectors sold for about $1,500.00 on ebay a few years back!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 13, 2017, 12:43 PM:

If it is OK to add other bad film equipment ideas, I'd like to nominate the Wittnauer Cine-Twin.

Jack of All Trades, Master of None!

Posted by Joe Vannicola (Member # 4156) on December 13, 2017, 11:21 PM:

At the time Polavision came out, I was delivering films and film supplies to camera shops, pharmacies, ect. I remember the color was quite good,especially since Polaroid was known for it's inferior color. One of the guys who worked at the camera shop told me Polaroid was planning to make so you could edit the films onto bigger cartridges which could be opened up. Unfortunately, the system was in the dumper before these changes could be implemented. I must say that I did like the idea of a movie film that would develop instantly. But the idea was woefully impractical.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on December 14, 2017, 03:22 AM:

Here Polavision soon ended up being sold at bargain prices at Dixons - as did the Agfa Family system.

The only thing I could think was good with the Wittnauer Cine-Twin would be that the zoom lens would stay in focus when zoomed to fill the screen during projection. You could st for telephoto to focus accurately then zoom back to fill the screen.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 14, 2017, 03:46 AM:

Some twenty years before the Wittnauer Cine-Twin came to the market in 1959 there was the 9.5mm Campro. A dual-purpose camera and projector.
http://www.pathefilm.uk/95gear/95gearcampro.htm

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 14, 2017, 05:37 AM:

I saw a show about very early filmmakers and a lot on them operated with a single machine. They'd be out during the day shooting film and then convert over to projection and show their films to get some income after sunset.

The guys in the film were traveling by car from town to town and their theater was just a big tent.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 14, 2017, 09:46 AM:

Here's the Wittnauer Cinetwin in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwQ-G38wIQ

Somebody give this guy a bigger take up reel.....FAST! [Big Grin]

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on December 14, 2017, 11:45 AM:

Paul, that is my video! I have 8 of those goofy things and will be selling most of them soon. There are two models, the Zoom 800 and the four lens turret model that I think is the WD400. They are not very practical, but are neat little display items. I have no idea what happened to that video as the last part of it is the same as the first, but without sound. It was not filmed that way.
I have a lot of videos of projectors running on youtube (mostly 16mm). Search under my youtube handle.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 14, 2017, 08:02 PM:

Barry, I will gladly buy you a take up reel for Christmas! [Big Grin]

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on December 14, 2017, 08:10 PM:

Ha! I think I did that video about 7 years ago and if I recall, just grabbed the nearest empty reel I could find. Just was going to run a few feet of film for demo and never gave it a second thought about how funny it looked until you mentioned it. Nothing escapes the guys on this forum!

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on December 14, 2017, 08:55 PM:

Watching the YouTube link that Paul Adsett provided for the Polavision Instant Movie System implies that the image is great!
Today's advertising standards wouldn't allow that sort of misleading info unless there was a T&C like "image may not appear like this" or "results will vary" or even "simulated and enhanced image shown"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exuJ8TSJGQ0

And although the Princess 9.5mm projector wasn't well-made according to comments,it is a beautiful looking projector in my opinion.They must be fairly rare to fetch that sort of money in auction?

[ December 14, 2017, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Clinton Hunt ]

Posted by Scott Alexander (Member # 6306) on January 30, 2018, 06:19 PM:

For kicks, yesterday I tried shooting two rolls of Polavision! They had expiration dates of July 1979. I acquired a working camera and a working projector for the big experiment.
We had a lot of fun running around in front of the camera. We tried one roll outside and one roll inside. BUT... we got no exposure of any kind. When we played it back, it just looked like clear leader, with little specks on it. I was disappointed, though I knew in advance that film that expired 39 years ago was probably doomed! My assumption is that the chemicals just dried up.

For any of you have who used the player, the one odd observation is that the "developing time" was much longer than the manual said it should be. The film went back and forth a few times, playing and rewinding, before the lamp decided to turn on and do playback.

Am I the last person alive who will try to shoot Polavision?

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 31, 2018, 12:06 PM:

A projector that seemed to have done well, but most collectors don't like them, are those Kodak Moviedecks! Yep, only up to 400ft and from what I have read, they were not all that kind to film, but I had a sound version of this projector and I always thought it was pretty nice that the reels were sideways/flat and it certainly didn't take up to much room, and they were also both super and standard 8mm.

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