8mm Forum: One for "Shorty" to answer?

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 23, 2018, 12:18 PM:

Hey Shorty ... (or others in the know)

When did those lovely Castle films "Castle Color" standard 8mm releases come out? What was the date? I've always thought that it was sometime in the 40's, but I am not sure, but I have always thought that it was within that time frame when the double speocket 16MM prints were still being made.

For those who don't know, I think that these were among the first ever "package films" films released for the home movie market that were in beautiful color, (not including the Kodak Kodachrome home movies, of course).

Though made from the two strip Cinecolor original negative material, the sprocket area states "Kodak", so I wonder if this was some form of Kodachrome used for these releases, but just not stated as Kodachrome ...

One thing is for sure, they still, to this very day, have GLORIOUSLY BEAUTIFUL COLOR!!!

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 23, 2018, 01:58 PM:

About or near 1956-59, Castle offered a few titles in color, the "Ub" cartoons in cinecolor fro 1940 to about 1953 and some Lantz cartoons 16mm Tech for about two years, 1947-49 - Now later on, again late 50's, Kodachrome (or anscochrome) releases in western, travel and cartoon were the norm until Eastman color, which was prevalent from 1960 till the close of the company, and most always turned pinkish-red - Some of mine still maintain their original brilliance, just fortunate in storage and humidity temp - Anyway, taht's about my nickel on it - Shorty

Posted by Kenneth Horan (Member # 3) on January 23, 2018, 03:02 PM:

The Castle color releases of the Ub Iwerks cartoons were made from the original Cinecolor materials by Cinecolor. Cinecolor was a two color process (blue-green and red-orange) and was printed on Kodak duplitized stock. Duplitized stock has emulsion on both sides of the base. One side carries the red-orange record, the other side carries the blue-green record. So the Castle Films releases were actual Cinecolor prints made by the Cinecolor laboratory in Burbank. They were not, and had nothing to do with Kodachrome. Actual Cinecolor prints hold their color very well so can be classified as "low fade".

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 23, 2018, 03:12 PM:

Yes, then kodachrome came into play in the late 50's before the advent of eastman - This was the travelogues and adventures mostly

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 23, 2018, 03:43 PM:

You've touched on a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I've been interested in both Cinecolor and Castle Films for many years. The first four were offered in October 1941. Here's an advertisement: https://sites.google.com/site/3dfilmarchive/castle-films-cinecolor

I just ran a few of the 8mm and 16mm Cinecolor prints. Yes indeed, the color holds up beautifully and none exhibit the dreaded yellow step-laddering issue that I've seen on other late 40's Cinecolor 16mm prints.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 23, 2018, 07:27 PM:

I also collect the Castle Cinecolor cartoons. I have one in 16mm sound and 10 of the regular 8 silents. There were only 16 titles made in Cinecolor by Castle between 1941-51. [Smile]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 24, 2018, 11:42 AM:

What a wonderful little article from the beginning of those color cartoons being released!

That "Jack Frost" release must be fairly rare. I haven't personally seen one on standard 8mm. It's pretty cool that they made available so early after they're original creation! [Smile]

I also have the double sprocket 16MM of "Little Black Sambo" and the image quality is exceptional and of course the color is top notch!

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 24, 2018, 11:48 AM:

I've got a friend who has most of them in 16mm sound. They still look great on the big screen and the Cinecolor is quite pleasing.

I believe Steve Stanchfield/Thunderbean is supposed to release these on Blu-ray from the original 35mm red/blue nitrate elements.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 24, 2018, 12:19 PM:

Yes, I heard that too, (Steve and I go back years!) and they ought to look grand with his treatment. He's always done his best to get the best available negative elements.

In fact, from what i have read, Steve has been working on releasing from original negative elements, "Hoppity Goes To Town" in HD! I can hardly wait to see just how brilliant it originally looked!

Back to Castle Color ...

Does anybody have a complete list of all the Castle Color/Ub Iwerks standard 8mm releases and when they were released (beyond the first four, which we know from earlier in this post, to have been released in 1941!).

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 24, 2018, 01:10 PM:

Osi, there were fifteen cartoons released in 16mm and 8mm Cinecolor between October 1941 and November 1946. The Cinecolor prints were produced until 1951 when Cinecolor switched their lab to three-color printing.

I've updated the webpage with more information and literature including the original box art for JACK FROST.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 24, 2018, 04:01 PM:

Boy Meets Dog is the 16th. It was only 1941 according to the Castle book. [Smile]

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 24, 2018, 04:03 PM:

Osi, I have these in Std 8 Silent with original boxes -

JACK AND THE BEANSTALK, SIMPLE SIMON, DON QUIXOTE, PUSS IN BOOTS, DICK WHITTINGTON'S CAT, BIG BAD WOLF, SINBAD THE SAILOR, HEADLESS HORSEMAN. LITTLE BLACK SAMBO (this one I don't have), MARY'S LITTLE LAMB, KING'S TAILOR, PINCUSHION MAN, OLD MOTHER HUBBARD, ALADDIN'S LAMP, JACK FROST - Charming little things they are - Shorty

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 24, 2018, 04:12 PM:

Bill, "Boy Meets Dog" was first sold by Castle in December 1940 but not in color. They made some prints that were possibly available for rental libraries but they were not offered for sale in the catalog.

Their first Cinecolor cartoons were October 1941.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 24, 2018, 04:24 PM:

See? I don't know nothin...much

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 24, 2018, 06:19 PM:

On the Boy Meets Dog, yes I know the Cinecolor version is rare but it does exist. I have a DVD set of about 150 public domain cartoons and the Cinecolor version of Boy Meets Dog is on there. I doubt I will ever find a print of it but you never know. [Smile]

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 24, 2018, 07:02 PM:

Oh for sure, they did make some color prints. In fact, there's a pretty decent upload of one on You Tube.

But it's certain that Castle never sold it commercially. I have the ad from when it was first offered in 1940 and it's black and white. Plus it's not listed as being color in any of their subsequent catalogs. I think it was strictly a rental item through their non-theatrical licenses but so far, every catalog I've found lists it as black and white.

It's a mystery, for sure!

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 24, 2018, 07:53 PM:

Those ads on your link are really awesome. I am always on the lookout for the Castle Cinecolor prints... I find them very pleasing to watch and they are interesting cartoons as well. It is just not the same to watch the B&W versions once you have seen the color prints. [Smile]

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 25, 2018, 09:32 AM:

Thanks very much, Bill. I've had an interest in Castle Films since I was a wee lad. In fact, I wrote to them around 1971 asking if the original boxes were available on the Abbott and Costello comedies. Even at that young age, I suspected the generic red box with the circle of black and white photos was a repackage. Someone at school had an original RIOT ON ICE box and that confirmed it.

Come to think of it, the box that I put on the webpage for JACK FROST is not the original. That's a 1946 version. I'll post the original later today.

Thanks for the kind words!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 25, 2018, 10:41 AM:

Man ...

I am "reelly" enjoying this topic! (sorry, couldn't resist!).

The only two I have wanted from this series in the 200dt standard 8 color editions I have, "Little Black Sambo" and "Pincushion Man", as these wrre, quite frankly, in my opinion, the high point of Ub Iwerks animated films, though "Sambo' is more one for it's politically incorrect nature, (which makes it more collectible).

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 25, 2018, 11:35 AM:

Thanks, Osi!

Standby, there's more to come...

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 25, 2018, 05:38 PM:

The new page is finished and has been updated with more information and images.

One discovery: the circulating 16mm color prints of BOY MEETS DOG are Kodachrome and not Cinecolor!

http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/castle-films-cinecolor

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 26, 2018, 11:40 AM:

1942 ... awesome, now I know!

So, "Sambo" is nearing the big "80" years old and still looking as good as the day it was printed! Wonderful!! [Smile]

Posted by Bob Furmanek (Member # 3734) on January 26, 2018, 12:40 PM:

I agree. It's amazing how well those prints have held up after so many decades.

Good lab work!

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