8mm Forum: Filmguard save? How to apply?

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Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on June 09, 2018, 09:40 AM:

I just received Filmguard.
It smells fantastic. Also the film after using it.
-Is it save to breath it in, while using it?
- Do I need to dry the film afterwards, or is it good for the film to be rolled up with it?
It now takes up a bit less space on the reel, because it packs tighter, but I'm affraid it might get sticky.

What I do, I use a katon cloth soaked with Filmguard and let my Elmo GS1200 rewind the film through my fingers.
I do this rewinding twice to get the film back on it's origenal reel, both times with Filmguard soaking cloth, so it's applyed very well.
Not sure if the second time needs to be a dry cloth.
I thought, with a Dry Web Media Cleaner, the film stays wet as well, is it?

I know my father used something in the past (I think from Kodak) and hanged a reel on the other side of the room, so the film got a long way before it got back on the rewindreel, just to make sure it was dry.
But does it need to be dry with Filmguard?

Also, is it save for the Elmo GS1200 to use the fast rewind function?
My Goko-MM1 was not powerfull enough to rewind holdimg the film between my fingers.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on June 09, 2018, 10:36 AM:

Hi Matthieu
I'm not surprised it runs well in the GS,I think your putting too much on,One pass is enough and you don't have to soak it so much,a slightly less amount is needed,you coat the film if that makes sense. If your unsure about fumes then do it in a well ventilated area,it's not one of the worst smelling/fumes cleaner.

As for using the GS for rewinding,it will do it but will put extra wear on the motor,I personally wouldn't do it all the time but a set of rewind arms would be better if your doing a lot of applications ,or find a cheap projector and use that if the reel capacity is ok,Mark

Posted by David Baker (Member # 3259) on June 09, 2018, 10:37 AM:

I've found using Filmgaurd that allowing the film to sit in a covered box or can for several months , it dries nicely and the VS is totally not detectable .
As far as rewinding with the Elmo - if you can , get a set of manual rewinds and use them . It will save the life of the Elmo gears and belts . Apply it to the film that way .
I would use a well - ventilated area to apply because of fumes .
Hope this helps you out with saving your films !

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on June 09, 2018, 11:27 AM:

Strange thing is,... I really like the smell of the fumes.
Not sure if it gets healt problems tho.
Not everything that smells godd is healty, take glue.
But Filmguard smells so much better hahaha.

@ David.
You get them in a bit sticky and they dry well?
The reason I used it so wet, is becaus I really need to clean up my films.
I got them all second hand and my projector gets dirty while playing them.
I thought, cleaning them twice will get off all the dirt for sure.
The cloths are very dirty the first time.
Hoping it's not the audio track thats coming off.

[ November 22, 2018, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Matthieu van der Sluis ]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on June 09, 2018, 01:04 PM:

As many, I guess, I put Filmguard on a cotton cloth and change when it gets too dirty (some films are clean but others are very dirty). I use a dry cotton cloth when rewinding the film and change when it's becomes too wet. I noticed that with some optical sound filmstocks, there are sometimes drops left so it's important to dry. To apply and after dry Filmguard, I only use manual rewinders. The risk you're taking with using a projector is that it you have the cloth trapped in a damadged perforation, you may not, due to the speed react quickly enough to avoid troubles.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on June 09, 2018, 02:03 PM:

Yes, Dominique that print of Futtocks End I bought at the Big Screen Scene was rather dirty, but had much better colours (Fuji stock)when cleaned than the extract I already possessed (Eastman).

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on June 09, 2018, 02:20 PM:

I use the Kelmar film cleaner easily adapted from 35 to 16 / 8. You just have to find a way to fit it to your booth setup, as I did on my towers.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 09, 2018, 02:25 PM:

As i understand it, one of the benefits of filmguard for the user is that there are no toxic fumes at all, it is very safe to use. But as with any chemical, i ensure good ventilation. [Wink]

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on June 09, 2018, 04:43 PM:

Well, if it's not toxic, I just as well enjoy the smell.
With a window open next to it.

After adding the Filmguard, it's just like my films are new and just printed, like stapping into a new car.

I did all my 1200" reels twice with Filmguard, without drying them.
Tomorrow, I'll take them out of their boxes and dry them.

Did someone try adding Filmguard, while hanging a reel on the other side of the room and letting the film go all the way before coming back to the takeup reel, so the film has to take 15 meter of air,before roling up?
Isn't that a better way?
I'm afraid the dry cloth will damage the film a bit, because of friction.

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on June 09, 2018, 05:12 PM:

I mount the film between the arms of my cine editor. I dip a small artist's paint brush into some Filmguard and brush it onto both sides of the exposed film. I then lightly clamp the film with a clean piece of white cotton cloth held between my figures and wind 50 to 100 feet or so of film through. Checking the cotton will show how much dirt has been removed. I repeat the process using a clean area of the cloth each time until the end of the reel. When I rewind the film, I lightly clamp it again with a piece of cotton cloth to remove any surplus fluid. You don't need to use much Filmguard as a little goes a long way. It lubricates film so a clean, dry, cotton cloth clamped lightly around the film shouldn't cause any damage. It takes a while to dry and some prefer to leave treated films out or in opened boxes apparently. I like the smell as well!

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on June 10, 2018, 01:20 AM:

I think this is indeed the way for maintaining, but my old films are so dirty, it probably can't harm to do this again the way you described. I shall test this.
I'll do one of the reels again to see if there is more dirt coming off.
If so, I'll finish the rest of the films the way I did, and than start over the way it suppose to be done.

What happens, is that the second time rewinding with filmguard takes more dirt of the film.
I think the dirt need some time to get loosen up, so rewinding back takes it off better the second time.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 10, 2018, 03:04 AM:

All ive done for 40 odd years, is apply the cleaner to a good 100% cotton hanky between thumb and finger. Using rewind arms,(you cant get a decent amount of pressure if you use the projector in rewind),and winde the film through, changing to a clean piece of cloth every 100/200 feet. If the film is very badly soiled i do it again on reverse but i still give the film another going through using another clean but dry cloth to take off the excess using only the lightest of contact. I did go through a period with filmguard of over applying and this does not do the projector or films any good. Now ive got it about right and it seems to work well. My own opinion is that you really do need rewind arms to do to this properly unless you go one better and buy the projector cleaning attatchments. Ive never found it necessary to do this myself. [Wink]

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 10, 2018, 04:01 AM:

100% with Tom on this method. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on June 10, 2018, 05:24 AM:

Me too,I'm with Tom,Mark

Posted by Martin Dew (Member # 5748) on June 10, 2018, 07:43 AM:

Yes, agree with Tom's method. I use an 800ft Goko editor as my rewind arms, but also use silk lens cleaning cloths (like you get in a specs case) rather than cotton. Probably makes no difference, but I find silk to be both absorbent and completely non-abrasive.

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on June 10, 2018, 10:29 AM:

Now, if all you kind people have the same longtime experience, I must not be so stobborn and do what you do.
Thanks a lot.

The Goko I have has 1200" reel arms, but it cannot take so much counterpressure.
My Elmo GS1200 is much much stronger., but I like this projector to life longer than just surviving my cleaning time.

I have to find myself a nice couple of rewind arms afterall.
A few monts back I wanted to ask the cinema's nearby for those, because they all went digital by now.
I think I'll have to do this afterall.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 10, 2018, 10:41 AM:

Matthieu, rewind arms often come up for sale, check the dealers, also Van Ek and even ebay. They come up quite often. They are defiantly worth there weight in gold. I use them to bench rewind all my films, i believe over years, this must save a lot of wear on the projector. Many have disagreed with this, but surly if you rewind on the arms and not keep using the motor/gears etc of the projector, doesn't it make sense? [Confused]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on June 10, 2018, 01:47 PM:

Some replying have mentioned its smell. What does it smell like?

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on June 10, 2018, 02:03 PM:

Hi Tom.
I see the rewindarms often, but not with a 1200" reel capacity.
Or just not when I'm looking.

Maurice, it smells like, very nice.

Okay, that's a bad joke.
I shall try;
It smells like a clean office, but when you smell it in verry deep, it has a hint of childens erasers, the pink gummy colored ones, mixed with some sort of cleaner.
It's a warm nice smell.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 10, 2018, 02:07 PM:

I believe rewinds are a must because you can control the speed and pressure of the application cleaning and examination before you put your valuable film through your valuable projector.

When damage or imperfections become apparent between your fingers and the cloth, you can stop and examine, consider repair, etc.

Make good at this stage, together with a check on a good film editor machine, eg. a Goko motorised, before running in an actual projector and your films will have the best chance.

As has been many times before here, but projecting film is a hobby with as much passion as any other. Projection is the last stage of caring for valuable film.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on July 18, 2018, 07:00 PM:

Has anyone ever seen audio enhancements with the use of the Filmguard?
In addition to not causing damage to the magnetic tracks, it could also allow a smoother audio, with less obstacles and a more constant speed.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on July 20, 2018, 05:56 PM:

...apart from the rest... In Europe the Filmguard can only be found by the usual UK seller?
Is the 16 oz format somewhere available?

Posted by Nantawat Kittiwarakul (Member # 6050) on July 20, 2018, 08:14 PM:

Only if Filmguard could be shipped overseas... [Frown]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on July 20, 2018, 11:20 PM:

Maurice, it smells like the products used for wood furnitures.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on July 21, 2018, 07:59 PM:

It seems to me that the official supplier shipping overseas. I am wrong?
Dom, do you buy it in Europe?

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on July 23, 2018, 07:46 AM:

I bought this Filmguard and let it ship to the Netherlands.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on July 23, 2018, 07:49 AM:

Yes, Luigi. From the UK.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on August 20, 2018, 04:54 PM:

Filmguard arrived today. I have some tests and it seems excellent, but I still have to learn how to dose it.
Having it sprayer, how many sprays are suitable... every 15 meters of film?
Or maybe one spray is indicated for more meters?

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on August 20, 2018, 06:07 PM:

I put the film onto the arms of my cine editor. I use a small artist's paint brush to apply a little Filmguard to both sides of the film between the arms. I hold a piece of clean cotton cloth around the film between my thumb and first finger as I wind, say, 15 to 30 metres of film from one spool to the other depending on how dirty the film is when I check the cloth. I then repeat the process using a fresh piece of cotton each time until the end of the reel is reached. When I rewind, I hold a piece of cotton cloth lightly between my thumb and finger again to wipe off the surplus. You don't need much Filmguard as a little goes a long way.

Posted by Nantawat Kittiwarakul (Member # 6050) on August 20, 2018, 09:57 PM:

Eventually managed to get a bottle of FilmGuard from Steve Osborne's store (yay! [Smile]

) for my fellow collector. He's kind enough to let me have a small sample&try it a bit before passing it to him.

From what I've found,it is a bit more "oily" than I thought. So I gave only a squirt of spray on the cloth to make it wet,but not dripping. Then run a test reel (50ft of 8mm film) through it. Found out that's still more than enough,so I run the second pass with the other side of the cloth (where it's still not so wet) to wipe off the excess.

The result is quite exactly what I expected. The film runs smoother/quieter than it was. The small base scratches simply disappeared. [Big Grin]

Emulsion scratches&other blemishes are noticeably reduced. Dust&dirt are partially removed,too.

Summary - apply just enough amount of FilmGuard to make it effective. Over-application would be quite a waste and would cause more trouble than solution. [Razz]

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 21, 2018, 05:51 AM:

Yes I overdid this and running that film through my GS1200 the soundhead had difficulty with this I think.
I heared a lot of noise.
Now I have to clean the soundhead with alcohol.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on August 21, 2018, 10:42 AM:

Ok, one spray for 50ft is more than abundant, lesson learned.
I had sprayed two of them, the film was very oily, but passing the dry cloth and surplus go out.

A note: it is normal that in addition to normal dirt, on the cloth you also see the signs of the magnetic strips? Of course, the strip is not damaged, it is not detached and always works.
I remember that this also happened also with other cleaners.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on August 21, 2018, 01:09 PM:

Luigi,

Yes, a little streak the same color as the stripe sometimes shows up on the cloth. This has happened with every cleaner I have ever used and there has never been an audio issue.

Doug

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on August 21, 2018, 04:35 PM:

I think the audio issue I have is because of all the oil on the soundhead.
I hope, otherwise my projector has another serious issue.
Too bussy with work at the moment, so I placed this on the side for now.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on August 21, 2018, 04:50 PM:

Is there any news on the smaller more affordable and usa to the EU postable bottles for the UK yet.

Hope so.

Thanks Mark.

[ August 22, 2018, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Mark Todd ]

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on August 22, 2018, 04:50 PM:

Thanks Douglas, it's true, there have never been any damage to the magnetic strips even if I found those little brown traces. It also happened to me with a cleaner that was not even lubricant.

Mark, I think the UK retailer also has a small bottle, but I don't know the cost.

Matthieu, but this problem with heads happened sometimes even before You used Filmguard? Did you then try to clean with alcohol? Me too, the first time I got too grease on film, but audio sounded good.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on August 22, 2018, 06:53 PM:

FYI - 1 ounce is a typical amount to properly clean and lubricate a 2 hour 35mm print (which would be about 12,000 feet).

So obviously it takes hardly any at all to do a Super 8 print.

Posted by Nantawat Kittiwarakul (Member # 6050) on August 22, 2018, 09:11 PM:

Ok,based on 1oz. for 12,000ft of 35mmfilm.

So it's approximately 50,000ft of 8mm/super8 per ounce,and for a 16oz. bottle of filmguard...

Well,that's probably more than enough for my rather small collection. [Big Grin]

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 22, 2018, 03:49 PM:

Splicing films together is a problem after adding Filmguard, since it won't stick anymore. I had to clean it off with a alcohol tissue for glasses. I did this with the ends of both parts (12 frames or so), and after splicing togetrher, I added Filmguard again and cleaned it.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on November 22, 2018, 05:15 PM:

Solvent or tape splice?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on November 22, 2018, 05:54 PM:

I just dry (with a cloth) the zone I want to splice (with tapes) and it works without problem. When I use cement, I splice before appliying Filmguard but I guess that since you remove a part of the stock, the product should not interfer with the glue.

Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on November 24, 2018, 07:37 AM:

I use taape.
I just added filmguard and than decided to put the 3 400" reels on a 1200" reel.
Taping did not stick and drying with a cloth did not work for me.
Maybe because it was still to fresh.
Not sure the alcohol damages film.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on November 24, 2018, 10:23 AM:

The film needs to be wiped completely dry for tape splices to hold.

Doug

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on November 24, 2018, 10:45 AM:

The FilmGuard should wipe off with ease using a dry cloth. If it isn't, then you are applying WAY too much and will simply have to use multiple dry cloths to dry off those 2 frames before you apply the splicing tape.

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