quote:

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Hi Dan,

Can i stop you there, i did pay for the print thou my money was returned twice via Paypal with out an explanation from yourself!?! from memory you re-listed it because you thought the print was worth more then what i won it for. I have since never dealt with you!

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Robert, here are the facts. You won the 16MM IB Tech Scope print of Harper on May 10, 2007. After winning the auction, you asked me a question about the condition of the print, and I responded. Then on May 12th, I sent you an invoice with a note at the bottom explaining that the US Postal Service had done away with Economy(Surface) Mail. I also noted that the film weighed fifteen pounds. I did not hear from you, so on May 17, 2007, I opened a Non-Paying Bidder Dispute with eBay. On May 18, 2007, I received an email from you stating that the postage was a lot of money for shipping three reels, and could we come to some sort of agreement on shipping charges. So on May 18th, I sent you a second invoice without my packaging cost with an explanation at the bottom. Since you did not pay for the film, or reply to the eBay Non-Paying Bidder Dispute, eBay closed the dispute on May 25th, and refunded the listing fees. And on May 25th, I gave a Second Chance Offer to the second highest bidder on this auction. This is all in compliance with eBay regulations. The Second Highest Bidder responded the same day and paid for the film via Paypal immediately. Later that evening, I received a Paypal payment from Kerry Clarke under your eBay ID rpttms for the second invoice amount; however, I was forced to refund your payment with an explanation at the bottom of the refund as to why. You did not attempt to pay twice. So you see, the print was not relisted. In fact, since this was a Second Chance Offer, I received less money for the print.

Additional info: I wrote this post on May 31st and today, June 1st, eBay I.D. rpttms has changed to I.D.
rptkc. If you click their I.D. History you will see previous rpttms.

[ June 01, 2009, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Dan Lail ]
 

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Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on June 01, 2009, 12:49 AM:
 
Here is something to consider.Dealers,most 8mm films over 20 years old are not going to have great color.Some do,but it's rare,be truthful in your listing.Faded color is RED.color turning is FADING.pink is RED.Buyers,don't expect perfect color as in most cases it's not.But,that being said,any scratches and splices should be noted nby the number of them.Don't say,"a few splices",say how many there are.Don'y say,"Some Lines",say how long they run.By doing this,you can probably eliminate at least 50% of the disputes.And if a dealer would refuse to list the film this way,can you trust him?
 

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Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on June 01, 2009, 01:35 AM:
 
Chip,

You faired better than myself.

I purchased a print from an eBay seller who stated it was stereo with one track Spanish the other in English.

Not only did I pay for express shipping and receive 'slow-boat-from-china' service, the print was Spanish only with a blank balance track.

eBay didnt do anything to assist me, and the transaction resulted in my first and only negative feedback ( retaliatory )

The print cost in excess of $400, and ultimately Lance Alspaugh saved the day by re-dubbing the print. I have to say Lance Alspaugh provides simply fantastic service at amazingly modest rates. If anyone needs dubbing work, look no further than Lance.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 01, 2009, 09:22 AM:
 
I second you on that Roy! Lance is incredibly good. The range he gets on those little mag tracks is something else!

One track Spanish and one track english? Wow, thats a new one to me, (not saying that its not true), I'd be plenty pissed as well!)
 

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Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on June 02, 2009, 03:35 AM:
 
Any news David, but I,m sure Rob will be sorting it out.
Best Mark.
 

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Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on June 04, 2009, 01:09 PM:
 
Hi Mark and hi everyone,

seems I haven't been the only one with issues with Mr Tucker - at present Mark I still have the print and although I have repeatedly told Mr Tucker that I will send back the print to him if he will only reimburse me - I have heard nothing from him. I can't remember if I told you guys this but when I asked Mr Tucker if he was selling films via the film forum - he claimed not to hear of the group - strange !
 

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Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on June 04, 2009, 04:30 PM:
 
Yes, David, very strange indeed! Especially Robert's other Ebay I.D. rpttms being changed to I.D. rptkc the day after my previous post.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 04, 2009, 05:17 PM:
 
C'mon Robert, we all are happy to give you a fair shake and not run to judgment, but in order to keep good faith, (and you certainly don't want to write off a large facet of the Super 8 hobby with a improper dealing on this film deal), the right thing should be done right away to insure further good feelings.

Just want you to know, this post is not meant to be pressure to make you do something you don't want to, just a friendly reminder.

With all the members on this forum, I know that I wouldn't want to have a bad film deal known, (not that, to my best knowledge, I have ever ripped anyone off), as it would end future film trades or deals with other folks in the future ...

... like my never ending search for "Popeye Meets Ali Baba" ...

I really do hope that this series of posts will end honorably and that neither party will end up saying, basically, "Well, screw you all!"
 

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Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on June 04, 2009, 06:14 PM:
 
Dan you are not really telling the full story are you!?!

Won the film, you delayed your response when i ask you for the total amount plus shipping. It turned out if you was a bit quicker with your response i would of paid with out further delay. But because the postal rates had changed since then. I was not prepared to pay a premium rate for shipping charges.

Also just to point out that you were selling two prints of the same title? Thou strangely enough the print that you had already sold on ebay you used the same screen shots for the second copy that i had won?

All sounds very strange indeed!?! That’s why to this day I have never bought from you.

As with the gentleman who won the Blue Hawaii print. I am still waiting for him to go through ebay so i can resolve this for him so that i can have my fees refunded to me. Now just to point out that i have never refused him a refund and i have only ask him about 3-4 times requesting him to correspondence with me via ebay. Which he has failed to do to this day. Generally it is a very simple and easy requested to ask and carry out.

Thou it does seem that Dan likes to be very informative and at the same time likes to hold grudges. That certainly says a lot about a person!

[ June 05, 2009, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Robert Tucker ]
 

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Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on June 04, 2009, 06:33 PM:
 
Robert, only true facts were stated - with dates and timeline. If you will read the facts above, you will note that you received the invoice two days after the auction ended(eBay allows three days for invoices to be sent). You did not respond until eight days after the auction ended telling me shipping was too high. I sent you the second invoice that same day. At the same time I had instigated a Non-Paying Bidder Dispute for which you never did respond. I did not receive your Paypal payment until fifteen days after the end of the auction, and after the Non-Paying Bidder Dispute was closed by eBay due to non response. At that point, the film went to the second highest Bidder.

There is no score to settle with you; therefore, there is no grudge. In fact when I posted the original reply, I didn't even know if you were the Robert Tucker who had attempted to purchase Harper. Only after your response, did I know that you were that Robert Tucker.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 04, 2009, 07:05 PM:
 
I give up.
 

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Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on June 04, 2009, 08:19 PM:
 
Hi Robert you can start the ebay thing rolling putting David bought the item in error etc. I think it needs to be you who does that.
I think the only way David can get redress is by formal complaint if he does things. Your side is easier and better for you both.
I`ll try to send you a link to the page but you should be able to work out how to do it.
Its a quick easy form that will then ask David to agree etc, the case will close and yopur fee,s will be returned.

Well done by the way for sorting this out now for David, Rob.

Best Mark.
http://resolutioncentre.ebay.co.uk/

Go to this page and of the 4 options click in the small circle for the last one, " I want to cancel a transaction."

On the next page put in the ebay auction number, click continue.
Then on the next page "select reason" click down menu select say the buyer bought the item in error etc.Probably thats the best one.
Theres also a box to add a comment if you want then click on "send request", its a as quick and easy as that. David will then agree, the case will close no problems either way etc and Robert will then get his fee,s back.

Be great to hear this is all sorted out nicely.

Best Mark.
 

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Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on June 05, 2009, 12:06 AM:
 
Osi, I give up too.
 

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Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on June 05, 2009, 03:07 AM:
 
Hi Mark,

Many thanks for being very helpful in the situation; at least someone is being very helpful instead of being negative about the whole situation and just stating facts!

Thou I have tried this before and because David is not registered with ebay it cannot be done? That’s why David really needs to instigate this which I have told him on numerous of occasions.

Osi I think I needs a coffee!
 

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Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on June 05, 2009, 06:04 AM:
 
Hi Rob, I`ve just paypaled you the Ebay Fees amount now so its sorted.

David get the film back in the post and if you can get the cheque off too Rob thats great.

Best Mark.
 

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Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 05, 2009, 07:56 AM:
 
If you guys dont mind me saying this I think you should sort these differences out off the forum via private email or telephone.

I'm sure the problems are just missunderstandings etc. and may be giving other people the wrong impression.

Come back and let us all know when you guys have a happy tales to tell.

Kev.
 

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Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on June 05, 2009, 12:02 PM:
 
All is sorted out now. I am a happy camper.
 

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Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on June 06, 2009, 12:49 AM:
 
Gotta love ebay!LOL!
 

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Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on June 06, 2009, 08:59 AM:
 
Dear All,

I had a PM from Mr Tucker on Friday and he has requested finally that I return the print to him - this will be done on Monday by recorded delivery and then I will keep you informed when I receive the cheque and then the matter will be closed. I realise that Kevin would like these matters conducted via PM's but when the seller doesn't get back to you - how else are you to resolve - other than name and shame - I strongly agree with John W. Black - surely if you are going to sell via ebay or through the forum - then please list an accurate description of the goods- if a print is over 20yrs old - please watch the entire film - not just the odd reel and list accordingly - then at least the buyer will know exactly what they're receiving. I praise dealers like Derann and Paul Foster who don't hesitate to deal with faulty 2nd hand prints - this is a specialist hobby - let's not ruin it for each other.
 

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Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on June 06, 2009, 09:16 AM:
 
Isn't that what RESERVE PRICE means? The seller has the right to refuse winning bids if below the set price?
 

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Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on June 06, 2009, 11:15 AM:
 
I have to say that I agree with Kevin. This thread has been discussed, sympathised with, criticised at and mediated by, with a possible solution being offered, by the kindness of another forum member, who has nothing to do with the dispute, and yet it goes on………….

I thought this forum was about FILM COLLECTING, not “naming and shaming”, over a problem that ought to be dealt with, by adults in a gentlemanly manner. The film was advertised on E-Bay and the purchase was made on E-Bay, therefore the dispute, in my opinion, should have been dealt with through E-Bay. The fact that one of the participants is no longer registered on E-Bay only complicates the procedure. I know E-bay has many faults, but it cannot be blamed for this dispute. E-Bay did not write the description for the item, neither did they ask the "questions".

I agree that goods should be described as accurately as possible and I understand that the purchaser was disappointed with the "quality" (I think we all sympathise with that situation – but with regards to "Dealers", do you honestly think that the mainstream dealers watch all of their films, in their entirity, prior to listing them for sale – think again? Also, not all of the “dealers” issue an immediate refund, without an argument, and sometimes, not even then!).

The seller has asked that the complaint be taken thru the proper “channels” of E-Bay. The fact that those “channels” have been closed, by the purchaser, is not the sellers fault. This is like “buying a loaf of bread from a supermarket and then taking it back to a garage to complain that it’s mouldy!”

Equally, if the purchaser is waitng "Days" for a reply from the seller, to mail about the dispute, then that is unforgiveable also. The longer disputes go on the worse they become.....

As I have said in my two previous contributions to this thread, I am not taking sides with either party in this and I wish an amicable settlement that satisfies both individuals. However, I find it, in my opinion, becoming tiresome, boring and repetitive.

This is a FILM FORUM not a Trading Standards Forum or a “Vigilante” forum.

I have pontificated enough now and for that I apologise. I will say that I think now that a “potential impasse” has been reached, thanks to Mark, the Moderators should close this tread before it gets too far “out of hand”.

– JUST MY OPINION Gentleman!
 

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Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on June 06, 2009, 11:17 AM:
 
David Skillern wrote........

quote:

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please watch the entire film - not just the odd reel and list accordingly - then at least the buyer will know exactly what they're receiving. I praise dealers like Derann and Paul Foster who don't hesitate to deal with faulty 2nd hand prints

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This raises a good point. Do you think Derann, CHC, or Foster watch their prints all the way through. Maybe I should start another topic.
 

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Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on June 06, 2009, 11:19 AM:
 
Thanks for that comment, Dan. My sentiments exactly.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 06, 2009, 02:43 PM:
 
David,

In your last post, you praised two film dealers. I can say for a certainty, that one of the sellers you mentioned has sold me VERY bum prints, three times, and I swore him off, as his prints were definitely not as stated by him himself, (as I always ask questions before buying any films, unless I know for fact that the seller is truly beyond reproach, such as Barry Atwood at Independent 8 or the Derann folks), so you can't always assume good deals with a dealer.

Most of the time it works out well, there are the wretched exceptions.

I agree with Keith, and I really don't think there's a need to "update" everyone to continue the "mud-racking" further.
 

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Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 06, 2009, 02:47 PM:
 
While I agree that this forum should not be used for mud-raking or personal attacks - I think it's important that bad/untrustworthy dealers/sellers are brought to the attention of collectors.

-Mike
 

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Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on June 06, 2009, 04:22 PM:
 
Osi, what do you mean when you state the sellers you mentioned in your last post to this thread are "truly beyond reproach"?
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 06, 2009, 05:47 PM:
 
Joe ...

Those that I would list that are truly beyond reproach are those who's character has been shown over time. They're worth has been tested in that ...

1. An item is as described. If a seller attempts to say, "Oh, gee, the reel that has the problems is the one reel I didn't check."(unlucky coincidence that). That's not saying that an honest seller can't truly make a mistake. It happens. It is, however, a sellers responsibility to vouchesafe the items that they sell, no matter how many they sell. It takes but one item to not be as described to multiply many times the bad vibes caused by that one improperly described item.

2. They have a track record. This isn't possible with a first sell, of course, but it is the responsibility of the seller to make as good of an impression as possible from the get go. Once you have a good track record, any smart seller will do thier absolute best to maintain that. When you have a person who just gets ahold of a collection and are thinking that, "Gee, its a one time sell, so I don't care about the impression I make" are incredibly short sighted, as they are not taking into account what impression that might make on others, even if the next item they wish to sell isn't the same kind of item.

Even in a big world like ours, it is strange how bad word can encircle the whole planet. Take the seller in the UK, (from another previous post concerning a bad projector deal). That person is now known all over the world, to a large portion of thier target audience, as a bad risk. A reel shame!

I do believe that there are some sellers that, due to thier ethical standards are truly beyond reproach. The before named Derann. The before named Barry Attwood of Independent 8, (hows that for a plug, Barry?) and the incredible Steve Osbourne of "Reel Image". Even if these men were to make an honest mistake, they're qualifications of being "truly beyond reproach" wouldn't be affected as, because of thier ethical standards, you know already that it was a true mistake.

This does not mean that the "gold standard" of being beyond reproach can't be lost. If a previously ethical beyond reproach seller makes many a bad deal, that level of integrity with the buying public can disappear.

I hope that this long winded explanation explains where I came from, Joe.
 

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Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on June 06, 2009, 06:04 PM:
 
Well put Osi. Couldn't agree more,little Bro. Perhaps we can now move on????????????
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 06, 2009, 06:45 PM:
 
Keith ...

I found your post so moving that I must now run off to the lavatory.

(hee hee hee!)
 

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Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 07, 2009, 03:04 AM:
 
Keith,
We HAVE moved on - the thread is now discussing dealers/sellers in general, and not individuals.
I see nothing wrong in this discussion.

Regarding dealers in general, I have bought prints from many in the UK and elsewhere who , by Osi's definition, would be beyond reproach. I've received some excellent prints from them and then again I've received prints from them, which they say they've viewed, with glaringly obvious faults that should've been highlighted.
Recently I bought a short from a reputable dealer which has an obvious sound defect, probably caused by a lab processing error.
Before buying I asked if he'd watched the print and if there were any problems. Nope, its an excellent Blackhawk original was the reply. Now there was no way that he could've watched the print and not heard the sound problem. So, he lied, either about having viewed the print or about the sound being good.
Now, when I let him know what I thought about this er...transaction he gave me a refund. Well, thats great....but, the fact remains he tried to put one over on a buyer.
Thats the last time he'll get any business from me.

There are other dealers who I buy from regularly from whom I've never bought a bad print. Yet, I hear stories from other collectors who received crappy prints from those same dealers. So, maybe my bad deal just hasn't come up yet with those guys.

The jist of this is that, as far as I'm concerned, there are NO sellers/dealers who are "truly beyond reproach". Very few, if any, of them are dealing for love of the hobby alone. They are, first and foremost, doing business. Buyers need to ask question upon question before buying a print.

Tuppence, please.


-Mike
 

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Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on June 07, 2009, 04:08 AM:
 
Michael, I'm so "happy" to see that we have moved on.

"Let's not judge the individual, but the masses...!"

It is like "eating at the only restaurant in world and then complaining about the food"!

If we made a truthfull list of every "source of suspect materials" then there would be NOWHERE to shop!

Can ANY collector, who has ever bought, or sold a film, truthfully say, hand on heart, that they have NEVER been dissapointed with a sale from ANY SOURCE? Or for that matter,has NEVER sold (or part exchanged) a film that they knew to have a fault (no matter how slight or minor)?

It is the "nature of the Beast" in this hobby of ours, where the bulk of the material that is available (from whatever source) is of an age where it is "passed its sell-by date" and has "changed hands" so many times. Do people think that "dealers" put those faults on the films? No, they are there from previous sources.

The possible answer is, when we find a "bad" print or piece of equipment - don't sell it on - destroy it! (That's Blue Hawaii gone for a start). How long will the hobby survive then?

Yes, we need to be "truthfull" when we sell films and equipment, ask for a reasonable price, based on that "truth", but also be prepared not to have it purchased.

In an ideal world, there would be no scratched prints, broken sprockets, sound faults, colour deviations, splices and most probably, NO Film Collecting hobby either!

This hobby is like a "game of chance" - you weigh up the odds, consider all the options, ask all the right questions and THEN throw the dice...........

Nuff said on this, from me.

By the way Osi - did you make it in time??????
 

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Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on June 07, 2009, 07:23 AM:
 
Dear All,

This site, forgive me if i'm wrong is to offer support, advice, help and guidance to collectors - what is wrong with discussion and debate about dealers and what they sell especially if you do get a dodgy print - you need to let people know. With regards to the comments that some of you have made regarding dealers - I can only say this - I usually buy Super 8 prints throughout the year - and if i've had any issues with the prints from Paul Foster, Derann, CHC or Barry Attwood - i'm either given a replacement print, money back or something for the same value - with no delay in the overall process. I can't comment on how you guys have been dealt with - this is just my experience and with regards my posting of dealers viewing the complete prints of a certain age - I meant dealers who sell privately through sites like Ebay - dealers who say have a small turnover of prints - As I have previously stated we need accurate descriptions of goods being sold - nobody wants to get ripped off and as mentioned previously this is a specialist hobby - we need to support each other - not damage this hobby - I've been collecting for over 30yrs - I would like to continue my hobby by supporting dealers and buying quality films to watch and enjoy on the big screen.
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 07, 2009, 08:26 AM:
 
Ooooh Keith ... I didn't make it ...

(terrible images in your mind now, eh, or hilarious?!)

I do agree with David on one thing. If there is a bad deal, it should be known if for but one reason ...

I'm sure that this specific situation with Robert isn't the everyday sale. A large part of the problem was ebay protocol not being followed. For a professional seller, (even an ebay one, if they make thier living from such), business protocol IS to be followed, by the seller AS WELL AS the buyer, though sadly, in the case of ebay, the seller tends to be stung more often than the buyer, as the buyer, even if they are quite reputable, are at the whims of the buyer, as the buyer can leave any rotten feedback they want and completely obliterate a good sellers reputation. That happened to me personally as many a forum member knows from the past.

But if a good person, who's made a bad deal can be exposed (gently, mind you), then, before that dealer makes a habit of bad deals, they can make things right, and beyond that, they're good reputation is saved ...

for, your only as good as your reputation. A good reputation can be slandered, but I personally believe, over time, that a good person/sellers reputation outlives the momentary slander
of a disgruntled buyer.

This is achieved when all the people who have bought from the person who had a good deal, come up to support that seller.

If the seller has never had an honest deal, well, then he's just s**t out of luck.

Off on vacation. Goodbye you all, for awhile!
 

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Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on June 07, 2009, 08:33 AM:
 
Have a great vacation Osi (I'll be on mine the end of next week!). Don't forget the Toilet paper!!!!
 

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Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on June 07, 2009, 10:49 AM:
 
So........if anyone wants to continue posting about sellers in general, please start a new topic. I'll leave this open for now only for posts directly related to the print in question.

Doug
 

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