8mm Forum: Camera lightning

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Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 07, 2010, 04:47 AM:

I am trying to find some sort of light source to use when filming indoors, but I can't find anything on eBay or Google.

Any tips?

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on January 07, 2010, 05:51 AM:

Hi,

video-/film-lights:

Of course you might even use some halogen work lights from a hardware/DIY store:

An example, others are also available with integrated tripod.
When you only want to lit a nearby face (=not a full room), even such portable devices might be sufficient.
Some more work lights (<- Beware: also contains some lights aren't suited!)
Some of these lights are also available with LED instead of halogen, e.g. this one

Hope this helps,
Jörg

Posted by Mark Howard (Member # 870) on January 07, 2010, 09:09 AM:

Hi Christian,

You really can't go wrong with pro Redhead lamps and some ctb gels. You can often pick up battered ex-rental redheads off Ebay for not a lot of money. Hope this helps.
Mark

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 07, 2010, 02:45 PM:

Joerg, my German has gone abit rusty over the years, could you tell me if anyone of these would do:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Filmleuchte-ca-1000-Watt-von-Fa-Kaiser-alt-aber-top_W0QQitemZ180453228777QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Elektronik_Computer_Foto_Camcorder_Foto_Camcorderzubeh%C3%B6r_PM?h ash=item2a03d9c0e9

http://cgi.ebay.de/Filmleuchte-1000-Watt-ISING-Art-Nr-2550_W0QQitemZ190361923192QQcmdZViewItemQQptZErsatzlampen?hash=item2c52746e78

http://cgi.ebay.de/Filmleuchte-1000W-Unomat-LX300_W0QQitemZ280446787779QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Elektronik_Computer_Foto_Camcorder_Foto_Camcorderzubeh%C3%B6r_PM?hash=item414bee60c3

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 07, 2010, 03:41 PM:

Christian, anything with 1000w (incandescent light) will do.

(ps: what about your first shooting on new year eve?

cheers,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 07, 2010, 03:48 PM:

Winbert, I'm sending it to Dwaynes for processing tomorrow, so hopefully I'll have it back before february. I'll notify you when I've got it back [Smile]

The three links I listed, do they all use standard bulbs that are easy to find/replace?

Posted by Antonis Galanakis (Member # 1455) on January 07, 2010, 03:51 PM:

Christian
For your Canon it is better (I thing) to buy one light that you can put ON it and not hold it. Do not forget that placing correctly a light on the camera on the proper screw, you set off the day light filter that is in the camera.
I know, I know, bad English…. Sorry.
Antonis

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 07, 2010, 04:03 PM:

quote:
The three links I listed, do they all use standard bulbs that are easy to find/replace?

I am not sure about this, but it seems to me their normal bulb used for industrial works. So it's easy replacement.

However, these kind of bulb is not gone quickly. I believe it is like hundreds hours live span. Considering shooting 8mm film will also be exclusive for certain occasion (esp for indoor), I don't think you need replacement in near soon.

rgds,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 07, 2010, 05:01 PM:

Antonis, there is no bracket on the 814 to fasten a lamp to, not that I can see anyway.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 07, 2010, 06:43 PM:

Christian,

In many cameras, there is a place to screw the lamp and by putting the lamp on that place it is automatically set the camera into indoor shooting setting (filter 85 off).

So it is not bracket and I think Antonis refers to this thing.

The screw does look similar to the place we put tri-pot for the camera.

cheers,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 07, 2010, 11:56 PM:

As far as I can see there is only one such hole on it, an thats for the tripod underneath... I'll check the manual if it says anything

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 08, 2010, 04:08 AM:

I would be a bit wary of using halogen worklights as suggested by Joerg.

Although they may seem temptingly cheap they can be a bit of an unknown when it comes to colour temperature.

I recently telecined quite a bit of 64T for a project for a client of mine who had used similar lamps in a studio setting. He had set his camera 'correctly' (i.e. 85 filter disengaged), and the results came out somewhat yellow looking, and the colours generally looked really weird.

As it happened this sort of suited the fantasy feel of his studio shots, so he went with it.

As far as I could work out the light he used must have been outputting a much lower colour temperature than the nominal 3200K, and I have read elsewhere that Halogen lamps can range between 2800-3400K.

Presumably the lamps he used were near the 2800k mark. The difference was very noticeable to my eye, and would in most circumstances have been pretty unsatisfactory, particularly if you were intending to project the results from the original film. In the digital domain I'm sure the error can be to a greater or lesser extent corrected, I didn't do so for his project as he came to take a look and liked the effect.

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on January 08, 2010, 04:34 AM:

Hi,

quote:
Joerg, my German has gone abit rusty over the years, could you tell me if anyone of these would do:...

yes, these are all "Filmleuchten" (film lights) from the Super8-heydays and would work fine for your purpose. The lights by Kaiser and Ising are reported to work fine. The seller of the Ising claims that the halogen lamp is relatively new.
The Unomat however is "nie verwendet" (never used). This could mean that it's "untested" = that you'll most likely have to by a new halogen lamp for the light.
However all three lamps do have a "caveat": I don't see any "tripod-adapter". (A "tripod-adapter" is needed if you want to put the camera and the light onto the same tripod: The adapter is a "stick"/"bar" with a hole in the middle. This is where the adapter is screwed onto a tripod. And at both ends the adapter has got a screw. One will be screwed into the camera, the other one into the light. You can see such an adapter in this photo (the black "bar" on the right). )

You'll also notice that the lamps do have different approaches: The Kaiser gives a more "horizontal" light (which I would prefer), while the Ising/Unomat gives a more "vertical" light.

quote:
For your Canon it is better (I thing) to buy one light that you can put ON it and not hold it. Do not forget that placing correctly a light on the camera on the proper screw, you set off the day light filter that is in the camera.

Such "on top of the camera"-lights have only been used for some cameras designed in the 60s and very early 70s. (With AFAIK only one exception: Nikon used it until the end.) And "of course" each manufacturer did have their own system (or sometimes even systems).

BTW: Has anyone ever tried one of these LED-lights?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Super-LED-Foto-und-Videoleuchte-f-bessere-Aufnahmen_W0QQitemZ370299870303QQcmdZViewItemQQptZErsatzlampen?hash=item5637979c5f

Jörg

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 08, 2010, 04:49 AM:

Hi, Jörg, and thanks for all your help.

I have made a bid on the Kaiser lamp now, and on a separate auction for an adapter.

Hopefully I'll get it cheap [Smile]

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 08, 2010, 05:36 AM:

Christian,

It would be good to make sure that the safety mesh is still in place in that Kaiser lamp, the pictures don't show it open.

It probably is there, but just in case...

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on January 08, 2010, 06:50 AM:

I personnaly use t his light kit on all my shoots. I recently shot a night time golf training video (yeah, not using film on these jobs, sorry) and it did wonders.

Posted by Antonis Galanakis (Member # 1455) on January 08, 2010, 07:44 AM:

These photos might help

By the way the lamp shoud be 3200K. So LED lights (6000 K) are not good for shooting.

Antonis

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on January 08, 2010, 08:22 AM:

quote:
These photos might help

Yes, similar lights could be attached to e.g. an Elmo Super 103 (at least up the Elmo Super 100 R). However the attachment was completely different.

quote:
By the way the lamp shoud be 3200K. So LED lights (6000 K) are not good for shooting.

Actually this depends on your film: When having a tungsten-balanced film, a light (e.g. halogen) with 3200K is best. However approx. 5300K - 5500K are best when using a daylight-balanced film. (And the 6000K are "close enough" to this value.)

However I'm more worried about the amount of light provided by the LEDs. E.g. the "Super-LED-Foto-und-Videoleuchte" from my "ever tried one of these LED-lights?" claims to have 11cd per LED. With 7 LEDs this should add up to 77cd. A normal light bulb with 60W has got 58cd, a 100W-bulb has got 110cd according to the wikipedia. Would this really help when filming indoors with e.g. the Wittnerchrome 100D?

Jörg

Posted by Mark Howard (Member # 870) on January 08, 2010, 09:12 AM:

Jean-Marc, they're redheads and I personally couldn't work without them.

There's also the PagLight, which I'd completely forgotten about. They beat any other on-camera light by a million miles. Bit expensive though. I think a basic 'prosumer' version starts at around £175.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 08, 2010, 09:30 AM:

Antonis, that is the Electronic version. I have the manual Autozoom 814 [Smile]

Posted by Antonis Galanakis (Member # 1455) on January 08, 2010, 01:32 PM:

Christian
This is the Electronic version. If you have the right one it will be great if you can email it to me.
Thank you
Antonis

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 08, 2010, 03:03 PM:

I have mailed you the correct one.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on January 10, 2010, 12:50 PM:

Mark: interesting, we call them "tangerine" here. When it comes to hair colour, we call "blondes" quartz lights betweem 1 and 2K.

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on January 10, 2010, 01:29 PM:

Re: LEDs. They look great, especially with a soft-box on them, they run cool and last a long time. They are still at least $200 for a 'pro' head without accessories.

One lighting recommendation: indirect or diffused light always is better than on-camera direct light.
A bigger, more general lamp bounced against the ceiling or with a soft diffuser will give you softer shadows, a better overall look, and, importantly, won't make your subjects feel uncomfortable, so they feel better about being on-camera.

Tungsten lamps are standard, but daylight-temp. lamps are fine too if you use daylight film indoors. This applies if you stick to real photo- or video lights.

Claus.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 11, 2010, 12:03 AM:

Hi guys,

Knowing LED lights will give white color (am I correct?) versus Tungsten (incandescent) light which warm color, what should we do with the color balanced filter 85 (disbaled or enabled?)when shooting with this LED light?

thanks

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on January 11, 2010, 10:31 AM:

Winbert,

With any daylight-color lamps, just pretend you are always 'outside' when using them.

Thus:
If you are shooting with tungsten-balanced film, put the camera on 'daylight'; if you are shooting daylight-balanced film, leave it on the 'daylight' setting as well.

What you may find once you shoot with daylight-balanced light inside is that any household lamps in the background will give a bit of a warm, reddish glow, depending on the strength of your main, daylight-balanced "shooting lamp."
House lamps are a bit "warmer" in general than even tungsten-balanced photo lamps.
This is not a bad thing; it gives texture and color to your shots.

If you shoot inside with daylight-balanced lighting, use daylight film to maintain the most sensitivity of the film stock.

Claus.

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 11, 2010, 11:22 AM:

quote:
With any daylight-color lamps, just pretend you are always 'outside' when using them.

Thus:
If you are shooting with tungsten-balanced film, put the camera on 'daylight'; if you are shooting daylight-balanced film, leave it on the 'daylight' setting as well.

Claus:

If you are using daylight balanced film in a Super 8 camera, and you are using daylight colour-temperature lamps, you would need to set your camera to the 'tungsten' setting, as it is in this position that no filtration is in place.

If you set it to 'daylight' with film/lighting as above it would come out looking too orange, as there would be an 85 filter in place.

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on January 11, 2010, 11:27 AM:

Bart,

I KNEW I would get it mixed up!!!
Thanks for the correction; it's obviously been too long since I shot Super-8 [Big Grin]

Claus.

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 11, 2010, 11:38 AM:

Confused?

You won't be after watching this weeks episode of...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaNWYHmUvI

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 11, 2010, 06:08 PM:

Daylight balanced films vs. Tungsten Balnaced films....

so which films are they?

I have 2 kind of films in my fridge now, they are Kodachrome K40 and Ektachrome 64T. Are they daylight or tungsten?

(I guess 64T means Tungsten though, but what about K40?)

Any super 8 films on daylight balanced?

rgds,

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 12, 2010, 03:19 AM:

Winbert,

Nearly all colour Super 8 film cartridges made by 'major' manufacturers are/were tungsten balanced, including 64T and K40. There are exceptions to this, notably the long discontinued Ektachrome type G.

The only daylight balanced stocks that are manufactured these days are by relatively small scale operations such as Spectra and Wittner, both of whom load Kodak perforated Ektachrome 100D into Super 8 cartridges.

There is also Pro8mm, who in addition to loading 100D into cartridges as above also load various daylight and various tungsten balanced negative stocks.

Super 8 cameras were designed on the basis that you would be loading tungsten balanced film into them, hence the anomalous/counter-intuitive situation where when filming with a daylight balanced cart you need to make sure that the camera is set to tungsten.

The 'normal' state of a Super 8 camera is to have an 85 filter in the optical path, this corrects the light so that it becomes tungsten balanced.

Selecting tungsten on a Super 8 camera removes the 85 filter from the optical path.

Most (but not all) cameras will automatically switch out the 85 filter (regardless of how the switch is set) when you place a daylight cart in them, as there will be no filter notch, and the cart will press a small switch inside the film chamber which will be mechanically coupled to the 85 filter, pushing it out of the optical path.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 12, 2010, 03:50 PM:

Can yo guys tell me what is the benefit of using daylight balanced films on daylight shooting or vice versa? knowing there is 85 filter to correct that if we need it.

(my plain question, why there should be two types of films)

rgds,

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on January 13, 2010, 03:57 AM:

quote:
what is the benefit of using daylight balanced films on daylight shooting or vice versa

Any filter will have two effects:

It'll reduce the amount of light that reaches the film.
It'll reduce the achievable quality as no filter is perfect.

Hence it's best not to use any filter, but to use a film that is suited for your lightning-situation.
Jörg

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 13, 2010, 10:57 AM:

Joerg and other who konw,

Can you link me with youtube or vimeo (or at least screens shot pictures)for a straight comparison between Tungsten vs Daylight balanced film at the same setting, same camera and same scene?

rgds

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 14, 2010, 12:46 AM:

Hi Winbert,

Tiffen's website has quite a number of examples of the effect that different filters give.

I can't remember how to post images on this forum, so you will have to click the links:

http://www.tiffen.com/hi-res/85B-Compare.jpg

First example is of an 85B (similar enough to a Super 8 camera's 85 filter for our purposes) converting tungsten film to daylight balanced. The filter is an orange colour.

This is the sort of very blue results you might get if you were to use 64T outside in daylight without the 85 filter in place, e.g. set to 'tungsten'.

http://www.tiffen.com/hi-res/80A_Effects.jpg

Example 2 is an 80A filter, which works exactly the opposite way round, it converts daylight film to tungsten. It is a bluish colour.

If you were to shoot daylight film under tungsten light you would get an image which looks much too orange. You will probably have seen this many times in old stills photos (most 35mm camera film being daylight balanced) which have been shot indoors with household lighting.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 14, 2010, 11:35 AM:

Hi Bart, thanks for the explanation.

Accidentally I just received my last 64T processed by Dwyane shoot with 85 and 85B filter. I will make another thread to show what is the different.

regards,

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 18, 2010, 05:11 AM:

Here is my review in using filter 85 and 85B during shooting with E64T.

Enjoy,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on January 18, 2010, 06:15 AM:

I'll post example screens myself once I get my reels back from Dwayne [Smile]

Also having the reel digitalized to DVD, so I'll have high-res screens and video [Smile]

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on January 18, 2010, 07:23 AM:

Hi,

when the e64t got released, someone at filmshooting.com made some tests in Italy on a cloudless summer-day:
* early morning (up to approx. 11:00): nearly no visible differences between wratten 85 and 85B
* noon (approx. 11:00 to 15:00): obvious visible differences between wratten 85 and 85B (85 was "too blueish", only the pictures taken with the 85B seemed to give correct colours)
* evening (approx. 15:00 to sunset): nearly no visible differences between wratten 85 and 85B
However I can't find that posting any more...
Differences were most likely caused by the amount of light and the sunlight's temperature (which changes during the day):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

Jörg

Posted by Bart Smith (Member # 780) on January 18, 2010, 07:51 AM:

Another point worth considering...

If you buy an el-cheapo 85 or 85b the manufacturing tolerances may not be that great, and they may not (in reality) be any different from each other.

So the best way to test it would be with 2 filters made by one of the reputable filter manufacturers, in order to give you a reliable reference point.

Not some ropey old piece of anything off ebay for example....

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