8mm Forum: ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST 400' MARKETING DIGEST

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Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on June 16, 2011, 05:07 PM:

ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST - MARKETING FILM/SUPER 8/COLOR/SOUND/330 FT.

As a collector, I am always looking for the "next" film to add to our regular screenings. The thrills and disappointment of winning and losing an auction from ebay, don't stop there. Once the arrival of the film comes in, at sunset...it's a showdown. Needless to say we were very excited to win this film, it is quickly becoming one of my favorite digests. Marketing released 'Once Upon a Time in the West' in 3 x 400' reels, this 400' selected scene edition and, a 200' selected scene edition was available as well.

Many have declared this film among their favorites; George Lucas, Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino. Sergio Leone's masterpiece was widely panned by critics on it's release in the United States, largely due to it's re-editing and shorting by Paramount. The original film features many subplots while, the star of the film Claudia Cardinale opens the digest, most of the scenes, are based around the characters played by Henry Fonda, Charles Bronson and Jason Robards.

Bernardo Bertolucci, a film critic and intellectual, wrote the story and insisted the central character in the film appear as a woman. This Marketing Films release does a good job of putting together scenes that tell the story rather quickly, I wonder how critics would view this release, it is as long as the minutes that were cut from Paramounts version shown in theaters. The digest stays with you and haunts you, the pacing of the film was deliberate with long moments of silence followed by sudden eruptions of action or gunfire. The screenwriters watched and studied films like 'The Westerner' and 'The Searchers' meanwhile, this film was largely shot in Spain.

The pacing and close-ups are a trademark for Leone, in my digest for this film, there are nice colors allowing you to study the actors faces. While the rest of the film is fading, typical of a Marketing release, overall I'm surprised that there is color in the skin and sky. The opening Marketing Films logo suggest deep and rich colors, however the print itself is a little soft in some areas, sharper in others.

Fonda refused the role, later accepting he showed up to the set with brown contacts, Leone directed him to take them off at once. Prior to this film, Fonda was typecast for his roles as a 'good-guy', audiences were shocked and disturbed to see him as an unforgiving villain. There are many beautiful moments in this digest, accentuated in the cinematography using extreme close-ups of the characters faces.

Clint Eastwood was made an international star by Leone. He was Leone's first choice to play the mysterious character "Harmonica", but the part was given to Charles Bronson. It would be good to point out that this 400' print may not satisfy the fan who wishes to hear a film full of dialogue, there is very little and what is there, is hard to decipher sometimes. You need to see the film two or three times to get all of the lines, but when you do hear them, the digest tells the story in a condensed way...most of it is there.

There is a deep secret at the heart of this film, most of the mythology for this particular western was culled from previous movies. Leone only made 12 films, most of them westerns. 'Once Upon a Time in the West' has a superb musical score by Ennio Morricone, you will never forget it. This digest has a great artistic feel - if it misses on some values that collectors enjoy about Super 8, what ever they are. It's no secret we all want to see great color and hear booming sound, a well preserved copy of this film will deliver the goods, I was not disappointed.

The characters in this film are damaged, their pasts come back to haunt them in more ways than one. Life hangs by a hair trigger and the right moment for vengeance...all for the sake of progress. The film was a box office smash in Europe before word got out that it was hacked to pieces by Paramount in the U.S.. In it's original form, Once Upon a Time in the West is largely hailed as the greatest Western, ever. And in my opinion, one of the best selected scene digests available from Marketing, who redeemed the theatrical release, giving it a wider audience using an even shorter time frame to tell such a complicated story.

This review is dedicated in the memory of John Black. I wish I could have sent the cover of the box sooner - Alas, here it is for future collectors who may need it.

MORE SCREEN-SHOTS HERE.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on June 16, 2011, 06:02 PM:

Correct me if I am wrong but from the box, it shows your reel is a 400' version. Unfortunately it has faded badly, while this is one of my fav.

Anyone own 3 x 400' which still has good colors?

In terms of color, since this title comes up at Ebay German quite often, has anyone seen the German version and if the color is still good? Can anyone share?

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on June 16, 2011, 11:23 PM:

Hi Winbert - You are correct, this is a review for the 400' digest, those Marketing stickers also mentioned 330ft. of actual footage, which is a bit confusing and mostly irritating that they did not include an extra 60 ft., that's 2.5 min screen time. I imagine they did it that way so that projectionists could include a trailer or something very short up front.

The copy I have has fair color, noted that it is typical of Marketing releases. There are 7 titles in our collection, and they all look about the same, some stronger in color than others. There's a nostalgic, washed out/softness to all of those Marketing Films that I have. I am also curious about the German prints, the 200' or the 3 x 400' versions for this film, it would be nice to collect those too.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 17, 2011, 01:54 PM:

I've seen worse color on this title. This is one of those films that has to be seen in scope. It was released, full length, in scope and the prints are outstanding.

I always get emotional with this film, as it really is about the ending of a whole "age" and the coming of the modern world. Thank U 4 this review.

OSI

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on June 17, 2011, 02:56 PM:

Osi - It's my pleasure to do this review, I have many ahead.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 18, 2011, 01:14 PM:

Good to hear! I've had much pleasure in writing numerous reviews on here (as you can plainly see from the "review index"), but it has always pained me that I have not been able to add screenshots to them.

Judging from that great close-up of Bronson's wonderfully chiseled face, (how would you like THAT emotionless mug staring you in a dark alley! talk about "Death Wish"!) the color is really quite good on that print and not off much at all.

I always thought that close-up of Henry Fonda there was quite comical, cigar hanging down. Cigars have always been kind of "symbolic" for something else (hint hint), and Bronson's naming of dead men always made me think that it made Fonda's characters certian "unmentionables" shrink and go limp, visually expressed by the "hanging cigar".

I've never read it anywhere concerning this film, but I have always wondered if that was what Leone was going for at that moment in that close-up?

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on June 18, 2011, 02:32 PM:

Very good observations Osi. There are many factors playing out in cinema, films made by intellectuals will cover every facet of symbolism and psychology. Almost nothing is left to chance, years of painstaking work and vast fortunes are spent drawing out characters for a new mythology, expected to be both obvious and subtle to reach all areas of the psyche. I am planning on book based on this topic, this is one reason for writing these reviews. I have to build a foundation for it though...this is a good start.

Posted by Oliver F. R. Feld (Member # 1911) on July 23, 2011, 01:53 PM:

Hi from Germany
since I own the 3x400 german version from "marketing film" I can say, that the colours (on my version) are awesome! A touch of brown maybe, but not at all disturbing!
I don´t like the cutdown very much, because I miss too many scenes, which are important in my opinion! I always wonder, why they cut off the breathtaking opening sequence and the appearance of the bad guys on the farm, but put the picture of this moment onto the box...?!
But it´s a cult classic... and it´s nice to have one of the most sold but questionable cutdowns in cutdown-history...!
Oliver

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on July 28, 2011, 10:17 AM:

Oliver - I've wondered myself why Marketing Film sold digests and features with scenes on the box that are not in the print at all. I accidentally bought two copies of 'The Godfather' because one cover has a picture of Sonny getting shot near his car, the other box has a Don Corleone at the at the wedding, neither scenes are in the cut down! A bit of false advertising??

I hope to get the 3 x400 of Once Upon A Time if it ever comes up, the digest is among one of my favorite cut-downs. There are multiple important sub-plots in the original film, the editing in the digest is done very well. I have come to understand that when they say 'Selected Scenes' they mean 'Selected Scenes'.

Posted by Oliver F. R. Feld (Member # 1911) on July 29, 2011, 02:01 AM:

Hi Gerald, take a look at eBay Germany, there are several cutdowns of the german Marketing-film release for sale! But ask for the colour shift! Cause before I found "my colourful parts" I got a lot of reddish prints... Although they were all in polyester!
My favourite cutdown is CLASH OF THE TITANS!
also hard to find these days!
Regards
Oliver

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on January 25, 2012, 08:05 PM:

Just thought I'd add something to this great discussion and hope my observations help.I still have the German Marketing Films
3x400 which was put out by them as 110m polyester stock
which I purchased back in '78/79 when it first appeared in
Germany long before the english version was available in the UK.
Mine came through a Dutch importer called Miel Koomen who
was the proprieter of Miko Studio in Alkmaar Holland who used to
keep me supplied with Italian westerns.I've just checked this film especially for this discussion and there is no sign of fade.
I have had two copies of the 3x400 Eng version and neither one
came close to the German print.I had a full feature that the
late Tony Churcher sold me,he having imported it from the USA
even that wasn't as good.I have it on 16mm but the print has
slight fade.This to me underlines a point I made in"Movie Maker"
some years back that German print quality blew everybody
elses out of the water.The definition on some of the German
stuff is still to be reckoned with,compare the Marketing cuts
of "Star Wars" to the usa versions the definition & col are poles
apart.It amazed me that the labs in Germany always had the edge on quality which is why I still hang onto that 3x400.Now
if the Marketing team had hired an editor like Keith Wilton or
someone at least sympathetic to the subject, that would have
made a world of difference.

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on January 25, 2012, 09:56 PM:

Hugh,

Welcome to the Forum, your insight is priceless, thanks for sharing. This is by far one of the best digests on 400' that I've seen, have never come across the 3 x400' print but now know which one to look for if I want great color. I have a friend that has a 16mm print but, it's in scope and I don't have a lens to see it at the moment -- perhaps some day.

Are the German 3 x 400' prints on AGFA film stock?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on January 26, 2012, 02:48 PM:

Hi there Gerald and thankyou for those kind words.I've had a look at the
film and the only lettering I can find are the words "SAFETY FILM"
I'll give them a more thorough check and I'm sure you're right
and they are "AGFA".This still remains a puzzle to me that I don't
seem to be suffering from this phenomenon of faded prints.I
realise this isn't the forum for this discussion and I'd be most
interested to hear your views and of course other members.I'll
see if I can create a new post as I feel this merits further study.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 26, 2012, 04:00 PM:

....and I am waiting now for my 3 x 400' from Germany which was told to be no fade..... cross my fingers.

BTW, if it is AGFA, they never put SAFETY FILM on the sprocket but instead some numbers. Correct me if I am wrong....

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on January 26, 2012, 04:19 PM:

Yes...Winbert, that's great!

I have some 16mm AGFA prints with just a number 2 or 2S on them, sometimes 1 or 1S.

Posted by Miko Studio (Member # 3058) on April 29, 2012, 08:37 AM:

Now that is a surprise: my past just caught up with me when, out of sheer boredom, I googled my name and it came up on this forum, together with my businessname of some 35 odd years ago. At the time I was a student and I ran a little business importing and exporting 8mm films under the name of Miko Studio. And mr. Hugh Scott was one of my best customers!

I am struck by the fact that you, mr. Scott (can I say Hugh?) and so many others are still bitten by the movies-on-film bug. I have moved on from a Philips VCR 1500 in the seventies, to VHS, Laserdisc, DVD and now Blu-ray. Once you have experienced full HD Blu-ray on a 3 metres wide screen with 7 channel sound, there really no way back to Super 8. As a matter of fact: I just ran a side by side comparison of an Italian western (LE PISTOLE NON DISCUTONO) I still have on Super 8 and the DVD (not a Blu-ray) of this title. This turned out to be a shocker: the DVD, even projected at 5 metres wide, still showed a brigther, more defined picture than the Super 8 did at 1.20 metres. If I were to estimate the number of pixels of a Super 8 frame would make up I would say something like a 100.000; Blu-ray is more than 2.000.000!

It really puzzles me why one would spend hundreds of euros/dollars to obtain a movie on film, when it is readily available on DVD and Blu-ray at a fraction of the price and with far superior picture and sound. Is it the whirring of the projector? I had mine in a sound proof enclosure! So what makes watching a movie on film so special? Is it like having a classic car? Lots of maintenance and limited comfort but on a sunny day it may still get you where you want to go? I am really curious! I do have fond memories of the time Super 8 was the only way to see movies in the privacy and comfort of you home, but the days of analog projection are gone.

To stay on topic (well, more or less): the excellent Blu-ray of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST can be bought in the Netherlands for as little as 10 euros.
Another 1000 euros will buy a Blu-ray player and a Full HD projector....

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on April 29, 2012, 10:49 AM:

This Forum is a gathering place for those of us who appreciate the experience of shooting and projecting film. While I work in many high res formats, I find the physicality, the active participation in projecting a film a far superior and rewarding experience then inserting a disc and pressing play.

One important point. Registration requires the use of your real name, not a business. Please register again using your name. Thanks.

Doug

Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on April 29, 2012, 02:04 PM:

Have to agree with both Miko and Doug on this one -- the physical qualities of film itself allow for greater resolution, etc. But let's face it, few Super 8 prints actually take advantage of those characteristics, resulting in today's HD top-line video and audio pretty much winning hands down. However, I thoroughly enjoy the film "experience" with the projector, screen, etc.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on April 29, 2012, 02:52 PM:

Hello Miel,how nice to know you're still in "the film game" as it
were,even though you're watching them on a different medium.
The point about film collecting is that it is a living, breathing
hobby that has many facets apart from collecting and screening film.For instance we've just been discussing the merits of various
makers of cine spools/cans on a separate topic.I fully appreciate
the plus points of DVD,as I have a collection of those too,but even
discs have their fair share of problems, like blocking,freezing,
pixilation etc.No I'm afraid I'm a film nut,true blue,dyed in the
wool,accept no substitutes.Film is organic,can be cleaned,
restored,edited(which can prove useful for diferent versions of
the same title)Do you know I still have the films I got from you
all those years ago,and still watch them.There is one of my reviews if you go to "A Fistful of Dollars"in the review section, of
the superb cut down you obtained for me from Italy all those
years ago.Regarding the comparisons between film and DVD, I
can remember all the hype for video that was superior to film
and how we would soon be relegated to history,Sony even
brought out the 8mm video camera that was going to kill off
once and for all the "film brigade",well video has bit the dust
and we're still here and will be as long as our love of "film as it
should be seen" lives on.Anyway give me a mail and let me know
how you're getting on and it's great to hear from you.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on April 29, 2012, 05:26 PM:

If people are talking about hobby they dont talk about how much money is spent.

The more important is satisfaction factor that cannot be repaid by any means.

Mike, you are correct when talking about classic cars. Why collectors should care about 1935 Ford if we can drive a Hyundai at much lesser price and 5 times speed... [Wink]

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on May 01, 2012, 07:52 PM:

While I can certainly understand the average person wanting everything "digital" (and there are many advantages), there's just a magic to film that I don't think can really be explained.

I was talking to a gentleman the other day (not particularly a film collecter), and even he said that there was a certain "cold" feel to digital, both audio and visual. Film, with all her problems, will always have a warmer feel to it. Even analog stereo recevers are gaining popularity again, probably for the same reasons.

I was in a high-tech store the other day and they were showing "The Sound of Music" on a huge screen. I believe it was on Blue Ray or HD, and it was so INCREDIBLY clear, it almost seemed I was looking out a window at real people! Call me crazy, but that look just didn't appeal to me, and I couldn't wait to get home and project it on super 8!!

Call me crazy [Wink]

.

James.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 02, 2012, 01:04 PM:

Your crazy! Join all of us other nuts in the projection room! [Smile]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on May 02, 2012, 01:22 PM:

It's this bloody hobby that's turned me into the well balanced
psychopath I am today!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 03, 2012, 11:21 AM:

My brother in law has a very nice woodshop in their basement.

-thousands and thousands of dollars worth of wood shaping equipment so he can make chairs and tables and such.

What's the sense of doing all this when you can drop in at the furniture store and have a perfectly good rocking chair or coffee table delivered to your house the next day for a few hundred, and not have sawdust to breath?

-simple: he gets the satisfaction of learning a skill, and improving it from year to year. When he sits in one of his chairs he gets the satisfaction of knowing it's his creation and not something he simply paid for. Yes, it's a chair. It's also an achievement.

I have this little movie theater in my house. The projectors I basically revived from death, but they run nicely now. When I first plugged the sound into my stereo it sounded awful, but I investigated why and designed and built a circuit to correct the problems and it sounds great. I got a nice big set of speakers that were once my Dad's but the woofers were blown. I found out how to repair them and now they work beautifully. I have a whole bunch of films I gradually accumulated. Some I made myself, but every one of them I enjoyed getting and about half of them are somehow my “favorites”.

What's the sense of doing all this when you can....

(Get it?)

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 03, 2012, 01:08 PM:

Once again, ther German film labs came to the rescue on this title. They did a full, scope feature of this title, (very pricey!) a few years back. I remember seeing screenshots of it from one of my friends, and it really was magnificent. Completely accurate color spectrum! It looked as if it was taken from the restored print that circulated in theaters a few years back.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on May 03, 2012, 02:16 PM:

Here are some screen captures (I had already uploaded some a few years back) from my copy on super 8 of the full feature.
An amazing print indeed.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on May 03, 2012, 06:21 PM:

Wow Gian- what an incredible print!!

A great movie to watch on the big movie screen, in full cinemascope!

Wish we were neighbors!

James.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on May 04, 2012, 08:16 AM:

If only, James!
I would like to discover if the master was an original 35mm positive in Technicolor (1969 issue - I'm quite sure this was the version used) or if it was the German 1981 re-release . [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on May 04, 2012, 02:33 PM:

Gian,

Isn't that if it used German neg release you can see from the credit title that would be in German. As well as the leader will say so.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on May 04, 2012, 07:40 PM:

Ciao Win. Thanks for pointing that. The print itself has German credits, since the master material come from there. Would like to understand if it is the original 1969 release or a re-release. As soon as I know something I will let you know. Ciao!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 05, 2012, 01:16 PM:

Thanks 4 re-posting those Gian! Good job and as I said before, a stunning print, and if it looks that good from a screenshot with a camera, imagine the sharpness of it in person.

"Nico" (or whoever he is), really does miss the boat on this, money isn't the object, nor is the perfect sharpness of the image, it's the physicality, it's the romance of film. I too have projection equipment and could watch a sharper digital copy, but I rarely get out my projection TV, but my projector's are constantly running, film grain and all!

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