8mm Forum: The Devil Rides Out non LPP

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Posted by Jake Mayes (Member # 3292) on November 12, 2012, 07:21 PM:

Hi guys! I had screened this print on my eumig at the time, and before i got my Bell and Howell projector that i had to return! Before the eumig gave up the ghost, i screened my print of the Devil rides out, secured for £40, full feature on 2 800' reels. He said he had no idea of the condition as he had not screened it, so i haggled the price and braced the for the worst. the print is what a I would call 'warm' if that is the right word? Retains ALOT of colour, but has a distinct warm colour cast to it, quite intense as well, obviously NOT LPP stock. The leader on the second reel says developed by kodak, so if this is the original leader, it is eastman stock? Although kodak developed many.... Not sure if their eastman was done in house sometimes? The odd line here and there on reel 1. Reel 2 is the same, although 2 minutes near the beginning of it has a deep emulsion side scratch running down it, but it subsides quickly. A pleasing print to watch.

It has Vinegar Syndrome. No doubt in my mind. I can sniff the reels and smell a vinegar odor, that was very potent if you smell close. No buckling or warping, and it runs through the projector smoothly, although the claw is loud (tiny changes in dimensions of the film?) It comes in a box that holds the both reels, So i keep it isolated from my other films. The reels had been stored in the case in plastic bags for years. I have seen OLD OLD stored magnetic tape that is acetate which was fine, as film was usually stored in cans or plastic cases, tape was stored in cardboard boxes, the boxes absorbing outgassed acetic acid! The print is still watchable and has a lot of life left in it!

It is not an LPP print, but to me still gives me viewing pleasure, and pleasure to friends who watched it, who thinks the warm cast added to the atmosphere of the film, I have to say, I agree. And the first time I ever saw this film was on these two reels. The perfect DVD i saw later on looked soulless in comparison! A time when fading can really add atmosphere to a film. I don't think it is worth much in money value, but as my first feature, it means alot to me! Will upload photos when my replacment projector arrives ( and i have removed the exit chute to allow me to use 800' reels!

I left this print outside the case for a while and cleaned the case, and the vinegar smell slowly dissipated, thought it was best to let the print breathe! Obviously it cannot be stopped, but i think letting it breathe would slow it down, a lot! I have seen reels from the 40s that have not begun to get VS, from a variety of conditions, some got it badly! I presume it starts once the acetyl groups break away from the cellulose in large enough amounts to start a chain reaction? I have seen old boxes of magnetic tape with marks inside the box where the tape was right next to it, that was not there where the plastic of the reels were. The box acted as a good buffer.

Jacob

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 12, 2012, 07:49 PM:

Hi Jake, I too have this film,along with many others much older
and I can't say I've heard of a super 8 print with vinegar, could
it not be the plastic cases that had an odour, I know that the
Walton cine books can have a distinct plastic smell about them,
or maybe the film has been treated with Cresclene which has a
strong smell too.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 13, 2012, 03:36 AM:

There's no reason why a Super 8 print can't get vinegar, Hugh, if it's acetate.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 13, 2012, 05:44 AM:

I have a print that had a strong vinegar scent when I got it, but gradually aired out. The interesting thing is it turned out to be polyester.

Sometimes I wonder if maybe it was in a collection where there were a lot of VS prints and it just picked up the odor from its neighbors, or maybe this was a case where it was some film cleaner.

-so stay tuned, it may be a false alarm!

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 13, 2012, 06:32 AM:

It is odd Steve, but as Michael says there isn't any reason why a
super 8 print can't be affected.I suppose its a case of I don't
appreciate the years slipping by, as this release is getting near
forty years old.It's just that I haven't come across a S/8 col print
with the dreaded vinegar syndrome or a std 8mm for that matter.
I hope Jakes problem is a film cleaner smell,as it's obviously a film
he loves.It is possible to get the sachets to place in the film box
that does absorb the acetic gases.

Posted by Jake Mayes (Member # 3292) on November 13, 2012, 07:49 AM:

well i know i tried tearing a tiny bit off reel 1 when i got it, as it had no leader at the time and the beginning was frayed, so cut an inch off, added leader, and tore the inch in two, to see how it tore. From the way it tears, i am sure it is acetate.

I do not know what film cleaner smells like, so I wouldn't know as of yet. As far as I am aware, anything with an acetate base be it magnetic tape or film can get VS, no matter what the size or gauge as it is the same material (cellulose acetate), although magnetic tape began using polyester much earlier than film in the mainstream. I have many reel to reel tapes in my collection, even a 1/4 track recording of queen elizabeth IIs corrination, recorded on the day from the radio, june the 2nd 1953. The other 3 tracks just have music. It was recorded at 3 3/4 ips. It is acetate.

Base has cupping and leaves the pinch roller covered in oxide on each play, but it sounds good and doesn't smell of vinegar, but it was exposed to extreme heat and humidity for a long time according to the guy who gave it to me along with many other tapes. I have not played it in years, now i am moving out of a shared house going to have my reel to reel equipment bought up as well. But thats going off topic, but that is an acetate tape in my collection that had been stored very badly, many of the other tapes he gave me had Sticky shed syndrome (polyester tapes) and did not contain any good recordings and were garbage to rerecord, so I discarded them. I used some NOS reel to reel tapes many years ago to record me and friend's doing some messed up music recordings, brings back memories and the tapes were and are perfect. I own some interesting acetate tapes that are valuable to me, i find they have held up better than the polyester ones in terms of stability of the oxide and the recordings on them. Provided they are stored well of course.

While I am on the topic of oxide shedding, do magnetic film strips suffer from this? (not through normal use where a bit can always occur, but was there any widely known problems to do with shedding?) What is the binder used to bind the track to the film? I know after the 70s many tapes did not suffer from it as much, and i have not heard of an acetate tape that suffers from it, and the majority of the films I have seen are acetate. What about the polyester ones?

So it could be a false alarm, is there any other way to tell apart from the smell? visually
the base is fine, and does not look deformed in any way. Although minor VS will not deform the base so much.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 13, 2012, 08:56 AM:

Hi Jake, I don't have any vinegar syndrome on acetate 8mm, but
I did obtain a 16mm B/W print of "By The Light of the Silvery Moon" that has it.It was got some ten years ago,has been soaked
in Filmrenew and kept in card boxes with sachets.So far the
film hasn't deteriorated any further.The symptoms I can give,
apart from the smell, is it feels "spongy" on the spools.The smell
isn't anywhere near as bad as it was and it is still a beautiful print.
Fingers crossed that your S/8 feature is okay.I just purchased a
feature supplied on 6x800' spools which did have a distinct
odour, but it was the Walton cine books it was supplied in.

Posted by Jake Mayes (Member # 3292) on November 13, 2012, 11:17 AM:

Well the case is like a book, two reels on either side and it opens like a book, is that what a cine book is?

Jacob

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on November 13, 2012, 12:44 PM:

That's a cine book Jake,and I think your print may have just
picked up the polythene odour,fingers crossed.

Posted by Jake Mayes (Member # 3292) on November 13, 2012, 04:29 PM:

Fingers crossed! I never knew it smelt similar to vinegar!

Jacob

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 13, 2012, 04:51 PM:

VS smells unmistakeable, in my experience. If it smells like vinegar, it most likely has VS.

Posted by Jake Mayes (Member # 3292) on November 13, 2012, 05:43 PM:

you see thats what I thought... I didn't know a case could create such a smell as it is unique... Also how would the reels have got the smell from the box if they were initially in half sealed plastic bags inside it?

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on November 14, 2012, 07:37 PM:

I just discovered a print stored in my closet in LPP from 1981 that has vinegar. That would be the newest example of it I've ever heard of.

The Tuscan plastic can it comes in is brittle, making me suspect that it was stored in very hot conditions prior to my purchase. Drat.

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on November 29, 2012, 01:42 AM:

I bought a lot of random super 8 prints (about 125) off of ebay when I was gathering the cover images for my monster card collections. I didn't care that much about print condition, so I didn't ask a lot of questions, but hit two that definitely Vinegar Syndrome. One was and Our Gang cut-down the other Twenty Million Miles To Earth, which was severely warped.

I Still have it kicking around somewhere.

Has anyone ever gotten a B/W print that almost looks "tarnished" and reflective to the naked eye, but not when projected? I had a regular 8 print of FAUST that looked that way.

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