8mm Forum: Eiki SSL2 - Film Society

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Posted by Lachlan Bain (Member # 423) on August 01, 2005, 03:39 AM:

Hi All,
I am on a steep learning curve, and am after some general advice/opinions. Our town is settng up a film society as the local cinema has closed down. We have access, at reasonable rates a large archive of 16mm films to borrow and show to our large group of members. We also have a venue. However we do not have a projector! I am looking at Eiki SSL2 but am unsure it that will suit our needs. We will have a screen, approximately 3m x 4m, so want something to fill as much of that as possible. Will a projector such as the SSL2 be able to provide such an image (bright enough), can the lens be changed to get the correct image size? will we be able to export sound to our amplifier and to speakers? and any other advice you may be able to give? Thanks very much.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 02, 2005, 12:29 AM:

Welcome to the forum! [Smile]

To answer some of your questions... the Eiki SSL-2 is a very nice projector with a bright 24V/250W lamp and a beefy 25W sound amplifier. It actually comes with two built-in speakers (rather than just one, like the SSL-0) and is capable of playing back both optical and magnetic soundtracks (the SSL-0 and SSL-1 do optical only). Unless you have access to 16mm magnetic-sound films (scopitones) you'll probably have no need for the magnetic playback capability so if you can find an SSL-0 or SSL-1 for cheaper than the SSL-2, it would make sense to go for one of those instead. But I digress. [Smile]

I would think that you should definitely be able to fill a 3m by 4m screen and not lose too much brightness in the process. The problem is that the Eiki SSL comes with a 50mm f1.2 lens standard. It's not a zoom lens and the projected image size is rather small so you'll need a VERY long throw - or a 25mm or zoom lens - to achieve this kind of image size. Going to show films in an auditorium or large hall? Then you should be OK with the 50mm lens... it really comes down to trying it out and seeing.
I have an SSL-0 myself and although it doesn't have a line-out, it does have a jack for an external speaker. Not sure if the SSL-1/2/3 models have line-outs, but if not, you could use an adapter cable to bring the speaker output down to "line" level and feed it into a separate amplifier powering its own speakers.
Hope this has been helpful so far. [Smile]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 02, 2005, 02:01 AM:

Hi, Lachlan, what a great opportunity. What are the dimensions of the viewing room? And how for is it from the projector lens to the screen? Aside from the lens Jan mentioned, you will probably need an anamorphic(scope) lens also. I would run the sound from the line out of the projector to a good 75 or 100 watt amplifier with two speakers at least. Eiki makes a great projector. The guys at BFCC should be able to add some good advice. Check out the pictures at their link. http://www.bfcc.biz/

Also, check out these screening rooms at Brad Miller's link. In the far upper left column click on pictures; http://www.film-tech.com/

Keep us posted! [Smile]

Keep us posted. [Smile]

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on August 02, 2005, 07:25 AM:

Hi Lachlan --

If you are using a screen that is as big as you mention, the SSL series (which as Jan mentions uses an ELC halogen lamp) is not going to cut it... You really want to got a projector with a Xenon lamp. The ELC based machines are meant for school classrooms or other small screen uses. At the sizes you are talking about, the picture would just be too dim. An ELC puts out something like 650 Lumens.

If I were you I'd try to find an Eiki EX-3500, or an ELMO CX-350. Both of these machines use 350w Xenon lamps that put out 2200 Lumens....

Posted by Lachlan Bain (Member # 423) on August 02, 2005, 05:53 PM:

Thanks very much for your help everyone, the projector is reasonably priced, so I think we will get it and see how we go. Screen size and throw distance aren't set in concrete as yet so once we have it we will do a fair bit of "experimentation" to see what kind of image we can achieve - I guess thats half the fun [Smile]

.
I will definitely keep you posted on our progress, and no doubt I will be back in here picking your brains (so to speak) as we go. Thanks.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 02, 2005, 07:24 PM:

I could be wrong but was pretty sure the Eiki SSL (with ELC bulb and the standard f1.2 lens) can put out 850 lumens.
Also, you could try replacing the 3-blade shutter with a 2-blade shutter which increases brightness by 50% but also adds a very slight amount of flicker which some people may notice, especially when the projected image contains large bright areas (sky, white walls, etc.). Using an Osram Xenophot lamp will give you another 20% increase in brightness - even with all these options, I still think that the standard configuration will suffice for such a large projection image, provided the venue is completely darkened and there is no ambient light. That's just my opinion, of course, and Steven may well be right in that a xenon machine is the better option here. [Smile]

Experimentation will show... Good luck!

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 02, 2005, 07:59 PM:

I agree, Jan, with a darkened room a 250 watt halogen wil make a very bright image. I use the 250 watt xenophots and throw a 12 foot wide image that is very bright. The xenophots cost a lot less and last longer. [Cool]

If Lachlan had given us the room dimenisions, then lens size could have become an important factor. Also tweeking the image size with a filmovara type lens could have come into play. [Frown]

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on August 02, 2005, 08:27 PM:

I guess it all depends on what you are used to... I find that halogens look terrible on a large screen -- especially if you have to use a short focal length lens (which usually has a slow speed).

I have a picture at home which is aproximately 12ft by 9ft (4m x 3m) and when I used to use regular halogen projectors, it was way too dim -- made everything look washed out and yellowish. At this point, I can't stand to look at halogen output unless the screen size is very small..

BTW - a 2 blade shutter lets through more light - but you can't use that when calculating lumens of output. I also haven't noticed that big of a difference with the Xenophots.

Xenon is not only much brighter, it's much whiter and colors look so much better, and B&W prints look B&W rather than grayish. There really is no comparison at all...

The main issue is price - you can get an Eiki SSL for under $100, but a Xenon projector will cost you anywhere from $400 (for the older models) to many thousands of dollars for the more powerful machines.

Lachlan - your screen is very large - you might really want to try to track down a Xenon projector.....

BTW - Dan, I think you'll find that lamp cost is actually cheaper with Xenons -- a 350W Xenon lamp costs about $300 and is rated for about 2000 hours - or 15 cents an hour. ELCs usually are rated for 50 hours and cost around $10 - or 20 cents an hour...

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 03, 2005, 12:27 AM:

Wow... Very intriguing, I had no idea xenon bulbs lasted this long. I take it these are the kind of bulbs that LCD/DLP video projectors take? I'd always wondered 1. why they were so freakishly expensive and 2. how they could last so long. [Eek!]

Thing is - I've never seen anything other than halogen light. I have no idea of how halogen, xenon and HTI lamps compare to each other. And I have no idea what kind of light source the local megaplex uses for its theaters (but then, 35mm seems a whole different beast to me anyway). [Big Grin]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 03, 2005, 12:46 AM:

I pay $5.00 a bulb for multi-packs of bulbs off eBay auctions. That includes shipping. That's 10 cents an hour. Here is pic shot off my screen. Does this look yellow?

web page

Posted by Lachlan Bain (Member # 423) on August 03, 2005, 07:20 AM:

OK, so we dont actually have a screen as yet, thats the approx size of the wall we currently have available, when projecting from hall floor, we can vary our throw to suit (primitive, I know). When we get the grant to create the projection booth [Wink]

(touch wood) I reckon we will be approx 12-17m throw. My guess is that we may have to get a Xenon down the track, but for now we will make do.
Hall dimensions are rather big (10 x 25m), and with our test screening the other night with a DVD and sound setup, noticed very average sound with plenty of reverb (hardwood floors, brick walls and vaulted ceiling) that is the biggest problem for the moment. Need to test some rugs on wall and hanging from rafters. Then construct a screen, but, getting a bit off topic now so will no doubt post seperate threads on these topics in the next week or so. Thanks again for the help.

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on August 03, 2005, 05:09 PM:

Hi Lachlan,

Nice project you have there! I was involved with a film society for many years. We used to use two Eiki's (SL-0's) in a very similar setting. screen was about 3x4 meter. Throw was about 10 meter. The hall was completely dark (no rooms at all), which made it possible to use the Halogen bulbs. We never had complaints about brightness, but it was important to keep all light out of the cinema. Halogen is a bit yellowish and nothing beats a lot of light and especially the whiter Xenon for B&W prints. But having said that, I think it is perfectly feasible to start of with the Eiki SL's and try to get Xenon some time later.
We also had a very hard floor (concrete) and bare walls. Did have a bad impact on the sound. To be honest with you, this was the biggest problems for our shows. Dialogue was often difficult to follow. We mostly showed subtitled prints (this was in the Netherlands), which made it less of a problem, but still far from ideal. The dvd test is not a fair test in this respect. Dvd sound is a lot better than you can expect from a 16mm print. Be prepared to invest a lot of time and a little money in that problem. Rugs on walls is a good start, but also a good amplifier (the Eiki's do have a line out, via the extension speaker socket; If you use a stereo plug, you can either get a speaker signal or a line-out signal) and speakers.
This film society has moved to 35mm in the mean time (also a nice project; but maybe for next year or so...). They show very little 16mm anymore.
Keep us informed!

- Rob

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on August 03, 2005, 08:53 PM:

Dan --

Actually, that shot does look a bit yellow -- but unless you're used to looking a Xenon, you might not notice... When I get a chance, I'll try to shoot the same film on a Xenon and a halogen with the digital camera and post the pictures here. Believe me - it's a HUGE difference...

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 03, 2005, 10:41 PM:

While I concur that there's a hint of yellow in that shot, I would attribute it to the camera Dan used to take the picture, rather than the actual projected image. Besides, it would be more interesting to compare halogen and xenon light by running the projector without film and showing white light onscreen [Smile]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 03, 2005, 10:45 PM:

Hey! Wassamata wid my $2.00 camera I bought out a guy's trunk after da riot. [Big Grin]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 03, 2005, 11:30 PM:

Well, um, *blush*, you know what I mean Dan... those digital cameras just never are quite that accurate with colors when it comes to taking shots off a projection screen [Cool]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 04, 2005, 12:01 AM:

Then how are we to ever know the differnce in bulbs using digital cameras? [Cool]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 04, 2005, 07:03 AM:

*scratches head* [Eek!]

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on August 04, 2005, 08:03 AM:

There is absolutely no doubt about Halogen being more yellow than Xenon. And I think Steven is absolutely right, that as soon as you have seen your prints projected with a Xenon powered projector, you will never want to get back to Halogen (not for a screen this size, that is). But that doesn't mean that you have to wait with starting your project until you have a Xenon machine. Most people will be perfectly happy with the image on the screen and many of them will be happily surprised by the improved quality when you do convert to Xenon.

Just get started with a couple of SSL's and keep on improving. That's also what we did in our film society. They are set to celebrate their 25th anniversary soon. They started with a single Hokushin machine, a white painted wall and asked people to bring their own chairs, now they are operating a Philips 35mm projector with 500 Watt Xenon, a professional screen, surround sound and very neat cinema chairs.
When you get the chance to build a projection booth, make it nice and big, so you don't have to rebuild it when you want to introduce 35mm. For us, changing to 35mm was a lot easier than expected and it brought the costs of running the film society down (and getting 2nd hand 35mm equipment, installing it, getting used to it and running it was a lot of fun!)

- Rob

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 04, 2005, 11:00 AM:

My point was not about halogens being as bright as xenon. I know full well that xenons are brighter. Like Rob, I was suggesting that Lachlan might want to start out with with a set up that was more economical. That is why I was inquiring about room size, etc. Xenon projectors do cost more and at $300 for each bulb and we all know you need that spare back bulb or two just just in case, well that's way over $1000. [Eek!]

Lachlan, I hope you guys have a fun time and please keep us imformed as to the progress. Maybe you could post photos of the different stages of putting this room together. [Smile]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 07, 2005, 06:29 PM:

I've been having second thoughts about the suitability of a 24V/250W halogen lamp for a 12'x9' screen. [Eek!]

I didn't quite realize how large that really is until I remembered my own screen is an 8'x6' and I perceive it as big. So I think Steven is right after all in that a xenon projector would be a wise investment.
And wouldn't you know it - today I started watching my super-8 Blackhawk print of Intolerance, with the lamp set to "high" (Elmo ST-1200HD with 15V/150W bulb) and upon taking a closer look noticed a very slight yellowish tint to the B/W image! Nothing bothersome, but you do see it when you know what to look for...! [Eek!]

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