8mm Forum: Help with L&H prints

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Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 24, 2007, 12:13 AM:

Hi every one,

I have decided to get back into film and as i know nothing about 16mm could do with some advise. I want to collect mainly Laurel & Hardy and IB Tech disney prints. When i was collecting on super 8, i found most of the L&H prints disappointing, i did manage to find one Derann print that was really good but they are few and far between and was always a gamble when buying if they would be any good. I gave up on Walton prints and tried Blackhawks, but found that they were again sometimes good sometimes awful.

Could you tell me what i should be looking for on 16mm prints on L&H, is there anything i should steer clear off or are they all mostly good. I have seen some on ebay recently go for £40 including The Music Box. It seemed a very good price, but i'm not sure.

Any help with would be very appreciated guy's.

Chris. [Smile]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on March 24, 2007, 02:54 AM:

Hi, Chris, I have acquired quite a few 16mm L&H prints made by Blackhawk and all are sharp focus with excellent definition. I know what you mean about the super 8 Blackhawks. A bit washed out! I did run across another company that made L&H in 16mm, but I don't recall the name. These were sharp also. This goes for features and shorts. As far as price, I have seen two reelers for around $80.00(40 pounds approx.) on average.

I.B. Tech is great but don't forget about LPP. Anything printed after 1983 should be on low-fade.

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 24, 2007, 01:24 PM:

Thanks Dan, I'll keep an eye out for those L&H prints. Yes, the LPP are also worth collecting, but unlike the IB prints they will fade in time, although probably see me out. [Big Grin]

I just dont want to buy anymore washed out, red or faded prints again, even if this means than i can only afford a very small collection, at least they will all be excellent colour.

Chris.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 24, 2007, 02:13 PM:

Chris

i know how particular you are about prints. I mean, I have seen you with a magnifying glass against a video projector (oh god did i just use the VP words!!!) screen. Are you sure that 16mm will do enough for you?

I agree that the LP stocks are good but then so are some of the older colour stocks that are not LPP. Some B/W prints are also excellent as well but it is a gamble whatever you do and it is that risk that makes 16mm fun!

If you want to borrow any to try out then let me know. I have loads of crap

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 24, 2007, 06:09 PM:

Chris,

The 16mm Laurel & Hardy
releases are generally very good.
But not all are equal.

The worst of the releases are the
dupes released by Walter Reade.
These were duped from the Film Classics
prints, and contains the Film Classics Plaque.

"Original" Film Classics, or Regal Televison
Film Prints from the Film Classics Library
are the best in L&H.
Period. But there are some things to look
for when searching for these because
they are tough to locate.
They too have the Film Classics Plaque.

It is best to inquire if the film stock
is KODAK marked in bold letters along the side
of the spockets. It is also good to
have a Kodak Film chart so that you
can identify the markings along the side
that correspond to the year that the film
was printed.

I have a bonafide original of Hog Wild
printed in 1948. The picture is crisp
and the sound fidelity is strikingly
bell clear. The best that I have ever
heard on any print. As the boys work
on the roof of Ollie's House, the music
track is as clear as a cheery carnival.
Those sound technicians truly understood
their craft in 1930.

The Plain Kodak stock has a higher
silver content, and a rich
theatrical appearance to the print.

The next to inferior prints were
printed by Blackhawk in the 1960's.
Although they include
the Film Classics Plaque that Stars
Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy, it can
also be identified by the Blackhawk Films
License Notice which precedes the
Film Classics Plaque - Thus this does
not make the film a bonafide original print down
from Film Classics, so it is good to ask.

Also these prints can be identified as
Eastman Kodak Stock, which is different
than the Plain KODAK stock.

Other prints that have an equivalent
theatrical quality are ones that are
printed on Dupont.
Granted though not all Dupont
prints are equal, but most are very close
to each other.

Blackhawks best production was in the 70's
depending on the neg material that was
available. By this time, these prints are
on Eastman Kodak Stock.
If you were to ask about The Music Box,
I would tell you that the best print was from the
run that was made in 1974.

Aside from The Music Box,
other excellent Blackhawk L&H
prints were made in 1979.

The best Sons of the Desert release by
Blackhawk were printed in 1974. Sometime around
1978, they released the same print with all
of the original MGM titles.
This is one print that has always been on the
soft side. Although this is not perfect it
is the best of all printings.

The best of this in Super 8 was printed in 1979
through 1983.

Otherwise, there is a 16mm reduction/dupe print
of this title which is also circulating and it
is completely unedited with the 'Little Organ Pumper'
line by Charlie Chase and the Excuse me scene,
which is a brief moment when the boys arrive late
at the start of the film. This print is pin sharp in
apperance.

Chickens Come Home released in 1974 has a 35mm
appearance.

The releases of Brats, Be Big, and Blotto, tend
to be soft with Brats being the worst of the
early sound releases.

However the best Brats title that I
own is one that was released in 1968, and it
has a Blackhawk title, not a Film Classics Title.
So this does not contradict what I had mentioned
earlier about 60's release prints.

The Best of Way Out West, has a Blackhawk
Main title Card: Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy
in Way Out West, followed by the original
MGM titles. This is true printdown material
and printed in true 20 minute sections
with a splice at every twenty minute print
down section.

Night Owls best print is from a Library Films
material. Library Films had the best on this.

Film Preservation Associates; the New Blackhawk
Films has the most complete material on
Men Of War.

I just donot know how well the film lab is
printing their material now a days? Last
I heard it was just so-so.

Last but not least there are the prints
made for television by Janus Films.
The first batch in 1979 were OK to not very good.
The second batch in 1980 were the best
in the shorts. But the features varied
in quality. These later prints were made
before the program went to video for TV.

Hope this helps and Good Luck searching.
In being comprehensive, I hope that this
did not make you dizzy or with the sense of
loss that it is not worth while.

I only wish to specifically guide
you in the specific direction.

The Boys deserve the best treatment
possible.

However I did once view the worst
possible looking Music Box print about
8 years ago at The Cinefile society
in Syracuse, and with a crowd of
400 people, they still roared with
delight.

Michael

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 25, 2007, 12:28 AM:

Michael,
I am really grateful for the lesson, you certainly know your stuff, thanks again for sharing this. I will print this out and keep it for reference. [Smile]

Now where can i get this Kodak chart you mentioned?

Tony, thanks for the offer mate. I do realise that there is good and bad prints in all formats. 16mm is something i once played with and never got serious about. Super 8 is great, but i have been there and can't really bring myself back to it again, although i will hang on to the very little i have. With 16mm it's all new to me, if you know what i mean. VP is still great for the family and for films like Happy Feet that i will be watching tonight, but alas unlikely to be ever avalable on either 8 or 16mm. Now someone is going to come back and tell me different. [Big Grin]

Tonight i will be mainly cleaning my new old ELF RT.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on March 25, 2007, 12:36 AM:

Chris, LPP will not fade. Kodachrome will not fade also.

Here is a link to Paul Ivester's identifying 16mm color stocks;

http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htm

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 25, 2007, 04:32 AM:

Dan,
I stand corrected [Frown]

and great link.

Thanks again.

Chris. [Smile]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on March 25, 2007, 11:51 PM:

Chris,

If you try to locate a Dirty Work
with the original bubbling
animated titles,
Janus was one company that
released it in this fashion.

I also have a Dupont release
of Busy Bodies that has the
opening Buzz Saw titles
transiton sequence.

But funny as it seems,
Blackhawk once released
Men O'War that had the
sound track from Busy Bodies
imposed over the titles.
The strange part is that
you hear the saw buzzing
and the Black & White titles
transition along with the
sound of the saw blade.

This is very weird.

If you need a Kodak/Dupont/Fuji
film chart, it would be good to
post it on the Forum.

Otherwise, send me your e-mail
in a PM, and I will send it to you.

Michael

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 26, 2007, 02:19 AM:

Michael,

You have a PM.

Chris.

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