8mm Forum: Best 16 mm Xenon Projectors

This is topic Best 16 mm Xenon Projectors in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on September 27, 2007, 01:00 PM:

Been trying out various 16 mm projectors fitted with Xenon arc lamps. The B & H 666 features a MARC 300 lamp and has to stand on it's own power-pack which strikes the arc. The Elflite 2000A on the other hand is a self-contained (heavy!) machine using an Ushio horizontal xenon lamp. The B & H features fantastic light output but at a limited life on the lamp (50 hours) and lamp price, it's at a loser compared to the Elf. The Elf, in rare instances, can feature an exploding lamp, but thankfully this is rare. Both have fantastic light outputs!

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on September 27, 2007, 04:22 PM:

The Elf, made by Eiki, is a clear winner for cost per hour for operation. Finding the Marc 300 lamps gets more difficult each year as they haven't been made in some time. I don't know if Ushio stil makes lamps for Eiki, but since they are hand made, it probably wouldn't be hard for them to do. Also the Xenon lamps for the Eiki are availble from Superior Quartz in New York as a second source.

As for the "exploding lamp", I've only heard stories and have no first hand knowledge of such an event. But the lamps need to be treated with respect and handled properly. A mis-handled lamp of either variety could explode. With all the enclosure protection, it becomes more a clean up problem than anything else.

If you look at machines made a little later, like the Eiki 3500, you'll find they are lighter since they have newer solid-state power supplies rather than the old heavy transformer types. They also have two level light output so you can "switch up for scope" if you so choose.

John

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 442) on October 05, 2007, 10:15 AM:

Apart from the obvious such as not touching the envelope with your finger oil and handling the bulb gently I don't think there's much concern about explosion with the size xenons used for 16mm. I've never heard of one going. Having said that, I still wear eye protection and long gloves when changing one out. Where you hear about it tends to be in commercial theaters with larger wattage lamps (i.e. 2500-6000 watts), and especially in situations where the operators let them go way past recommended hours such as 4,000-5,000 hours on a 2,000 hour lamp. With 16's, I've generally found that they get cranky to strike long before you've gone that far past the recommended lifespan. Xenons are happiest when turned on and left on as striking does affect their lifespan, which is ideal for a platter type theater application where they can be turned on for the matinee and left on until closing. Obviously with 16's you're likely to have many more strikes per hour of operation.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on October 05, 2007, 08:01 PM:

Just a clarification -- MARC lamps are not Xenon...

With that said, the EX- Eiki 3500/5500 or Elmo CX-350/550 are all great choices for Xenon.

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on October 06, 2007, 05:11 AM:

What about radiation with Xenon lamps? I am sure someone said to me that radiation is emitted from these lamps during use. I'm not talking about UV radiation, I'm sure there's some other form? Dangerous, or not?

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 442) on October 08, 2007, 03:29 PM:

None to worry about. Some early lamps apparently put out ozone, but anything you're going to use with 16mm is ozone free. I ditto Steven's recommendations--personally I have two Eiki EX-3500's because I already had a "fleet" of SSL's, and it's handy to be able to interchange the lenses, not to mention belts, mechanical parts, etc. Overall, once you've "gone xenon" you'll never be happy with halogen again. The brightness, and the higher color temperature are a major improvement, and given that the lamps will last 20-40 times as long as an ELC the cost isn't that bad.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on October 12, 2007, 10:44 PM:

If I have a minimum 14 foot throw,
is this overkill in using xenon?

Or would I need to have at least
18 feet to make xenon practical?

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on October 13, 2007, 09:38 PM:

Well screen size is a better indication since a 1 inch lens and a 14 foot throw could benefit from xenon. And of course the light just looks better.

John

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on October 14, 2007, 07:53 PM:

John,

If I were to combine a one inch lens
with a xenon projector, would a soft image
become eliminated by using a xenon light
source? The reason why I ask, is because a friend of mine
uses a one inch lens and the image is soft on a 10 foot
screen without xenon light.

I don't know if it is the quality of his lens optics that
create the softness?

Being that Schneider lenses are the gold standard in projection,
do you know if any Schneider 1 inch lens would also
be superior to to eliminate a soft image?

I also have two Eiki SNT machines, is it
possible or profitable to convert them to
Xenon?

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 442) on October 15, 2007, 03:34 PM:

I use a Schneider 25mm or 1" lens on a 20' throw with a 350w xenon Eiki, and the image is both sharp and bright, but less expensive short focal length lenses can be problematic in terms of evenness of light, vignetting, and edge to edge focus.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on October 16, 2007, 09:36 PM:

Jeff's right, spend the money and watch out for those guys who sell 25mm 8mm lenses in sleeves for 16mm projectors. They either don't cover the frame or edge fall off is going to be horrible.

As for conversion---you're too many years too late. Even if you could get parts, a conversion would cost several times what a used EX-3500 would sell for. Eiki had the power supplies for the last line of xenon projectors made by Ushio along with the lamps. The casting as different so you couldn't do a retro swap of parts.

There were conversion of standard lamps (EJL) to Marc 300 lamps back in the 1970s. But while a Macr 300 will output a bright picture, they are slow to warm up to full brightness and have a short service life (about 50 hours) compared to xenon (of 1 to 2 thousand hours). They were often purchased by schools that needed to use the projector occasionally for auditorium use. Marc 300 lamps are also on the endangered species list and also have a shelf life so consider a purchase carefully.

John

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 442) on October 17, 2007, 03:43 PM:

weren't the MARC's initially used for airline projection in a two lamp "changeover" configuration?

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on October 19, 2007, 02:44 PM:

I know that the Marc were used on airlines, but I remember a big endless loop reel so that the on board personel didn't have to touch the film. If it broke, then the movie was shut down for the flite.

Later there was a loop around the cabin system with lots of B&H 500 series heads showing the same print--if you looked at someone else's screen with your headphones on, it would be out of sync!

I remember when the Marc lamp was introduced and both Kodak and B&H had projectors that used it with the power supply in a separate base and it was going to be the answer to large screen 16mm projection---at least back in the mid 1960s.

John

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 442) on October 22, 2007, 03:26 PM:

You're right about the two systems, John. I recall specifically a Pan Am flight (shows you how long ago that was) and for some reason the loop setter wouldn't work, so another guy and I got the stew to open the overhead, and sure enough it was a 5,000-6,000 foot endless loop type system with a basically horizontal adaptation of a 500 series machine. We manually reset the loop, crossed our fingers, and it went for the rest of the flight. I remember years ago someone was selling salvaged B&H chassis from those systems really cheap, but who needs a 24v DC projector!

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on October 27, 2007, 01:25 PM:

For anyone fancying an Elf 2000A Xenon 16 mm projector, look at Paul Foster's website. He has one there (under accessories)for £549. These are great machines with great light output.

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