8mm Forum: The Vinegar Room

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Posted by Charles Watkins (Member # 2469) on June 28, 2011, 05:09 PM:

For the more serious and avid film collector of today, the encountering of prints which are infected with vinegar syndrome, is likely a growing occurance. The usuall trend by many is to treat the infected prints like that of a Typhoid-Mary, and exile them to the trash dumpster without delay. In most cases the films are likely common in their production and can be sought after later and replaced.

As we embark further into the crossroads of time however, where more and more acetate prints are maturing within the time frame for more readily developing VS, some of these prints may become substantally shorter in numbers. It may become less of a practical option for some collectors to discarding their films, esspecially if they may have become the best surviving copy in existance. At which point, a collector may want to try and save his film.

Traditionally the best practice for storing infected films has been with freezing them which temporarily stops the cycle. This is not always an affordable option on a large scale for some collectors, as I myself have come to experience. My modest feezer space has become quite limited over time. Therfore I've been looking into alternative ways towards managing growing supply of infected prints. I've used film conditioners and camphor with some level of benefit, but even use of the conditioners on a large scale can be somewhat of a pricey option

It was forum members Wayne Tuell and Dan Lail that prompted my attention into giving an open-air-storage more consideration. While it is generally vaugh as to what extent of an open air exposure with infected films might worsen the degenerative cycle in others, I was worried that it might act against slowing the rate process of decay within a comfortable time span. After many months however of keeping a room indoors dedicated specifically for an open air environment with infected films and allowing them to breath out their gasses freely, and I think I'm now seeing much of what Tuell and Lail were talking about. The rate of decay with the films seems to relax well enough within reasonable comfort and I've even noticed many of the films now even barely emitt a vinegar odor.

My confidence is growing with this method of storage and I'm even contemplating on perhaps removing some of my lesser degraded films from the freezer and transferring them to what I am now calling the "Vinegar Room". Where as reserving the gainedfreezer space for only the more dire and rarest of prints at hand. I understand how the cycle of vinegar syndrome isn't stopped with the open-air storage, but it seems apparently that it can be slowed down enough to make for a significant difference.

I'm wondering how some of you have about about with keeping some infected films and how their rate of degradement had advanced. Granting already that nothing replaces having an infected film duplicated. It alone is still not reason for the outright trashing of an original master print or a rare first release copy.

Thanks in advance to everyone for your time in reading and for any input that you might contribute. Charles

[ July 03, 2011, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Charles Watkins ]

Posted by Nicholas Fair (Member # 2498) on June 28, 2011, 10:49 PM:

This is completely fascinated, and altough I have no films personally infected with this particular problem, it is wonderful to see another film lover in Texas and I hope that one day you will be willing to let go of something and have it land in my open arms; vinegar need not apply unless integral to a great batch of sourkraut.

Posted by Charles Watkins (Member # 2469) on July 01, 2011, 08:29 PM:

Greeting Nicholas, my good fellow Texan Film Buff. These old stinky films might just make for a better topping on a bratwurst dog, and have you leaving the sauerkraut in it's jar! :-)

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on July 25, 2011, 10:50 PM:

I have some episodes of "The Tony Randall Show" that I bought several years ago. They were bought from a seller we all know, but I won't name him here - I don't want to start something in case he "pops" in from time-to-time. They do have v/s (odor only, so far) which, regretfully, was not divulged in the seller's description and yet I still watch them occasionally. I feel I'm just going to enjoy my stuff for as long as I can and if the day comes where I have to toss them all into the dumpster then at least I got good use out of them and my projectors. Nothing lasts forever and chances are 30+ years from now who knows if I'll even have the strength or energy to handle all the setting up/taking down and maintenance required.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 27, 2011, 10:52 PM:

Sometimes T.V. prints are scratch coated.
It eliminates the scratches, but it seals the film and prevents the films from breathing. Ultimately they begin to turn to vinegar.

Air out the films, and keep them far away from the entire collection.
If the film continues to smell and worsen, either keep it or can it.

Someone told me that the edible camphor can be purchased from an Indian specialty health food store and placed in a mesh ladies leg stocking, in a can, and it may help the vinegar.

How successful is the process? I really do not know.

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on July 28, 2011, 12:00 AM:

Thanks, Michael. I definitely will do that. Interesting about the scratch coating. Now I wonder if all my tv show prints are doomed to suffer the same fate. The "Tony Randall Show" prints I own have fortunately retained their color as well as some of the "Odd Couple" and "Paper Chase" episodes I own. I'd hate to see them all disintergrate. If only my color digests had not faded. All my color Universal 8 digests in 16mm (and Super 8) have all been attacked by the "Red Baron".

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 28, 2011, 09:58 AM:

quote:
Now I wonder if all my tv show prints are doomed to suffer the same fate.

Not necessarily. If you check on both sides of the film and they look shiny, then there is a good possibility that it was treated. One side should always be emulsion.

The dreaded Eastman Kodak Red Stock!
Well, there is not any solution. Some people project onto a light greenish or blue paper stock, in order to kill the red.

It's not perfect.

Posted by Claude Lyneis (Member # 3761) on June 12, 2013, 11:13 PM:

I have a print from 1967. It is 46 minutes worth and definitely has a vinegar smell. I don't have access to a projector but have examined the first few minutes of film. It is definitely wsy to read and brown. I guess this is the typical fate of old prints. Is there a link to find out more about this?

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on June 25, 2013, 09:06 AM:

I had never heard of VS until a few years ago when I resumed my interest in film making and collecting. I don't have anything with that problem myself, fortunately. I just wondered if anyone could explain why, say, a print made in the 60s could be suffering from VS, while an amateur film shot in the 1920s is in perfect condition, not even buckling.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on June 25, 2013, 09:46 AM:

Different film stock Robert,reversal film is different to the ones used in film libraries etc.That's why we can view some beautiful
stuff from times gone by with vivid colour.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on June 25, 2013, 03:35 PM:

Thanks for that information Hugh, I wonder if you could answer a question for me that I was going to post elsewhere. We all know that Eastmancolor prints turn to cranberry red; but when we see a film that states it is in Eastmancolor, I presume there was an Eastman negative. Am I right? The negative doesn't seem to be affected. I have a 16mm film that I haven't viewed yet, it's a Pathe Library print of the feature 'Elizabeth is Queen', hurriedly put out within days of the Coronation. It was filmed in Eastmancolor, but the 16mm prints were on Kodachrome stock.

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