8mm Forum: Cineavision on 16MM?

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Posted by Lars-Goran Ahlm (Member # 1908) on November 04, 2012, 04:59 AM:

I recently bought a 16MM copy in scope of Fear is the Key and was amazed when I saw that it was printed in a "Cineavison" fashion. It's a reduction print of a 35MM original with Norwergian subtitles, so It's probably printed locally in Norway.

Has anybody else ever seen one like this, or is it a anomaly in the world of 16MM. I have, so far, only three scope features in 16MM, one made in the US and the other here in Sweden (reduction print with Swedish subtitles) and they both have the picture filling the entire frame, with cropping at top and bottom. And I beleive this was the norm on 16MM just as on super 8.

So how common was this "Cineavision" on 16MM?

The person at the left in the picture above is Ben Kingsley, in his film debut, his next film came 11 years later and then he had the lead role.

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on November 04, 2012, 01:33 PM:

SanPaoloFilm in Italy used to print 16mm scope films with black bars on the sides of the frames, so to have the correct scope ratio.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 05, 2012, 12:32 PM:

Fear is the Key one of my favourite films, but I always liked Alistair MacLean films anyway. A very good soundtrack by Roy Budd, who sadly died at only 44. He did some excellent soundtracks in his short life.

Have you seen the stone that breaks the camera lens, its near the start of the 20 minute plus car chase.

I always like "Cineavison" films as they offered the correct screen shape. Often wonder on non "Cineavison" that's why they call scope films letterbox on 16mm & super 8mm.

Lucky you to have this film, and the colour looks very good too.

Posted by Darren Payne (Member # 1517) on November 05, 2012, 02:39 PM:

I had a 16mm scope print of Amadeus which had a mask either side of the frame preserving the 2.35:1 ratio so am guessing there are a few titles out there.

Posted by Lars-Goran Ahlm (Member # 1908) on November 05, 2012, 07:00 PM:

The stock is AGFA, so the colours are spot on.

I suspect the copy has some age, but it hardly shows, a few stripes here and there and a few splices, but otherwise a really pristine copy. The only thing I can complain about is that it at times has a "soft" focus, most notably during the end credits that are impossible to get a good focus on. But I can live with that.

Now if I only could find some good scope prints of When Eight Bells Toll, Where Eagles Dare and The Guns of Navarone I would be really happy.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 06, 2012, 05:46 AM:

quote:
Lars-Goran Ahlm
Now if I only could find some good scope prints of When Eight Bells Toll, Where Eagles Dare and The Guns of Navarone I would be really happy.

I have 'When Eight Bells Toll' 1x400ft from Walton Films on super 8 scope. Don't think it ever came out as a feature in scope on 8mm.

'Where Eagles Dare' This I have the trailer, 3x400ft MGM cutdown, 16mm, Laserdisc, Beta, and DVD. All flat except the DVD. Sadly the last time I watch the 16mm the snow was a little pinky coloured. This is one film I can watch again and again. If I had watched it last night & it was on at the cinema the next night I would be there. Unfortunately I missed it presented in 70mm at Bradford film museum, I believe that print was from Sweden.

'The Guns of Navarone' yet another favourite of mine. Got this 1x400ft Columbia cutdown 16mm flat, and DVD. Thinking of getting the blue-ray release too.

Was lucky to see all these at the cinema in the early 70's.

Good luck in finding then in scope.

Posted by Lars-Goran Ahlm (Member # 1908) on November 06, 2012, 08:42 AM:

Yes, I of course ment if I could find them on 16MM.

All these films I mentioned, including "Fear.." but excluding "...Eagles..." I have actually shown in 35MM back in the 80's.

I have "Navarone" on DVD and "Eagles" on Blu-Ray, but I am really disapointed in the latter since the intermission and Entr'Act music is missing.

I am hoping to perhaps find scope copies of these film made here in either Sweden, Norway or Denmark, especially since I have been told that almost all reduction prints made in these countries with domestic subtitles, or sound if a dubbed title, where made on AGFA.

And I also know that there were Swedish scope prints of these titles available in the early 1980's. As I for a brief stint worked at the local high school as a janitor, I saw 16MM catalogs from all major distributors here in Sweden, and they were packed with titles, even those they no longer distributed in 35mm. And there was scope prints of "Ben-Hur", "Spartacus", "Cleopatra", "King of Kings", "Doctor Zhivago", "Sound of Music", "Lawrence of Arabia" and countless others, not to mention the non scope films, and all with Swedish subtitles. How I wish there was such a thing as a time machine, so I could go back and somehow acquire these films. But atleast some should have survived to today.

So the quest for those elusive titles go on.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 06, 2012, 12:05 PM:

I don't know if it is technically more complicated to print in "Cineavison" format, if not I can't understand why it hasn't been the norm with 16mm and S8 as I'm sure most would rather not have a cropped image. It's a shame about the rounded corners, though, if they are visible, as there seems no good reason for these.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 07, 2012, 04:33 AM:

quote:
Adrian Winchester I don't know if it is technically more complicated to print in "Cineavison" format, if not I can't understand why it hasn't been the norm with 16mm and S8 as I'm sure most would rather not have a cropped image.

The Cinevision process on super 8 was developed by Dr Van A Tettering (don't think I spelled correct) His company was called Animex in the Netherlands. As far as I remember he took out a patent on the process. All it was two black bars left & right on the frame. I would be sure if anyone at the time just printed from 35mm and kept the original frame size, they wouldn't have any problems. Or just print with one wider bar. Animex only released on super 8.

The Dr died in the early 80's.

How about adding Puppet On A Chain in 16mm scope, another good film.

Funny we are now in the 21st century and yet when I watch an old film on my widescreen TV its got black bars each side! Or top & bottom for 2:35.1 [Roll Eyes]

Eagles Blu-Ray now off my list if not done as in cinema.

There's a very good magazine about the making of Eagles from Cinema Retro.

Posted by Lars-Goran Ahlm (Member # 1908) on November 07, 2012, 08:50 AM:

Puppet on a chain is on my list, but sadly it's not in scope.
Apart from being a good MacLean film it also has a Swedish actor/singer in the lead role. And it just happen to be that he is a very distant, but never the less, a relation to me.

Eagles are unfortunately not the only films on DVD or Blu-Ray that has the intermission and Entr'Acte edited out. I have come across the following: "The Dirty Dozen", "The Great Escape", "Kelly's Heroes", "The Longest Day", "War and Peace" (this one is exceptionally bad, it says in the titles the sound are in Perspecta, a early stereo process, yet the sound on the DVD is mono). And these are just those I have come across, there are probably many more. It's a pity when the same companies that have released these have treated other titles with more respect and included intermissions and overtures & playouts.
As you might guess this is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine, I want to have films presented in original form with all the trimmings. So I better stop now before I start to rant on in infinity.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 07, 2012, 10:11 AM:

quote:
same companies that have released these have treated other titles with more respect and included intermissions and overtures & playouts.

My friend bought Lawrence Of Arabia and though it was faulty no picture at the start, just music.

Just had a look at my old Rank Film Library catalogue Puppet On A Chain was available for hire on S8 too. Time plays with your memory I think I did hire it, because I had films from them every month. The hire charge on 16mm was £18.

Posted by Eberhard Nuffer (Member # 410) on December 10, 2012, 04:58 PM:

Lars,

I also have kind of a 16mm "Cineavision" print with Norwegian subtitles: Billy Wilder's last movie, "Buddy Buddy". Other than true "Cineavision" prints, it is printed on Agfa stock, so the colors are very nice.

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