This is topic Just started collecting, now have collection of 2 movies. Question about this vinegar in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.


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Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on January 30, 2013, 04:07 AM:
 
Hi,

I've recently dug my 16mm projector out of storage and I'm going to have it serviced and repaired (needs new belts).

I saw a film on eBay that I really wanted to own, so I bought it.

Unlike the other film I bought, which has very little odour, this one can only be described as smelling like a photographic darkroom, specifically all the chemicals that were used.

I've read about films breaking down and smelling of vinegar, is this what they're talking about?

Thanks,

James.
 
Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on January 30, 2013, 06:28 AM:
 
If it smells acidic, just like vinegar,very sharp,then chances are it
is "vinegar syndrome" and must not be brought into contact
with your other films.On the other hand it could be just a film
treatment if it just smells of chemical, err on the side of caution.
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on January 30, 2013, 07:04 AM:
 
It was listed as "No vinegar and film has been treated."

It smells like a photographic darkroom, what the chemical baths smell like.

"Stop bath accounts for the characteristic vinegar-like odor of the traditional darkroom." (wikipedia)

I'm at work at the moment, I shall give it a better sniff when I get home.

Thanks,

J.
 
Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on January 30, 2013, 07:57 AM:
 
Welcome James. If you want to investigate the possibility of vinegar syndrome a bit more seriously you will need to locate some A-D strips. These are pieces of paper that you pop in with a film for 24 hours and then remove it to measure the levels of possible vin against a colour chart. The real wonder of these is that they can show up vinegar syndrome before you actually notice any signs yourself. I’ve done my 40 years of film collecting archive and only a couple of films were going so a very worthwhile exercise for me at any rate. Its all rather enthralling as you check each film out and await the results, and although a couple of my flicks were well up the scale nothing much to worry about with the majority…yet! If your film is precious and it is going ‘to the other side’ its worth popping it in the freezer or at least keeping it very cold until you decide what to do with it. You could have a film copy made (watch out for copyrighted material) or have it transferred onto DVD for posterity. The A-D strips only work with Acetate film (film which will snap in your fingers) by the way. Looking after your films is another fun part of this hobby.
 
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on January 30, 2013, 09:23 AM:
 
It can be confusing because there are plenty of films around with pronounced smells due to various treatments, and even as an experienced collector, they sometimes cause me concern (although I did go to the expense of importing a pack of the A-D strips that Lee mentions). It can be difficult to be completely objective when you know about VS. I'm inclined to say that if you invite a non-collector that has never heard of VS to smell the film, if he/she says it smells like vinegar, then you have good reason to worry!
 
Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on January 30, 2013, 09:29 AM:
 
James, here is a site where to get those strips.

https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/store/media-preservation/ad-strips
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on January 30, 2013, 12:45 PM:
 
Thanks everybody, I shall definitely invest in some of those A-D strips.

I was going to write a proper hello but I guess now's a good a time as any! [Big Grin]

I was given the projector when I was young, it was going to be thrown out with two reels of bugs bunny. Used to set it up and run the two little reels I had.

It's all been sitting in a cupboard at my parents house forgotten until about November last year when another projector was going to be thrown out at my dad's school so now I've got both, my toons.

Light bulb went on, looked to see if there was any kind of collectors section on ebay and oh dear now I'm a bit poorer...

Got myself:

Disney's The Black Hole (no odour beyond plastic-y)
David Lynch's Elephant Man (with the darkroom smell)

Just checked the toons, smells like darkrooms + floral.
Exactly how I remember!

Both projectors are non-functional, my beloved eiki's poor belts have perished and the bell & howell has no power cable and is in an unknown state mechanically.

Both in need of a good service!

I really need a pair of 1600' cans for the black hole too, although it's in a fabulous cardboard film rental box from California. They seem rarer than the films though, they cost a fortune on ebay.

Ultimately I'm going to have to figure out how to store it all properly, which is going to be difficult living in a 2-bed shoe box flat. Leaving the vent open in the study will have to do for now, it'll be ~15C in here.

You say a freezer, surely frost will be a problem? I think maybe I'll just have to restrict my collecting urge until I live somewhere more suitable!

What I really need next is a way to get my eiki and maybe the bell & howell repaired and serviced.

Many Thanks,

J.
 
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on January 30, 2013, 01:15 PM:
 
James,
Welcome to the forum and the hobby.

Generally speaking, for your regular prints, storage in a freezer is way OTT in my opinion, particularly here in the UK. Some have reported prolonged life of VS prints when stored in a freezer, apparently.

Portsmouth shouldn't pose any storage problems at all.
 
Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on January 30, 2013, 01:53 PM:
 
hi james i can supply you with new belts and lamps and spare parts for yor elf i do have a large collection of 16mm films and projfor sale. should you ever need any .dont miss my blackpool film convention in november where there are bargains galore
 
Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on January 30, 2013, 02:19 PM:
 
As Michael correctly points out James, the climate of the UK is
very temperate and shouldn't present a problem with your films.
Personally, mine have never been left in a room where there is heat, to no ill effect.
 
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on January 30, 2013, 02:22 PM:
 
Oh, I agree, Hugh - not too close to any constant heat, next to rads, etc. I was speaking generally.
 
Posted by Matt McBride (Member # 3311) on January 31, 2013, 12:13 PM:
 
Hi James and welcome to the forum. I agree with Adrian about having someone non-biased sniff the prints. I make my wife smell my prints as she is a neuroscientist and works with chemicals all day so I think her sniffer is quite skilled at detecting various different gases. I keep my prints in one of our spare bedrooms with a dehumidifier on and so far so good. Homes are pretty temperature stable.
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on January 31, 2013, 02:56 PM:
 
Asked a work colleague to sniff, he couldn't identify the smell.

Ordered the A-D strips, probably a good thing to own regardless.

Having one problem though, Reel 1 would not come out of the can, spent a few minutes working it out of the thing.

Don't know what the problem is but the film is clearly a bit too long for the reel.

Won't go back in now, not without damaging the film.

Can film swell? Or be badly wound?
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on January 31, 2013, 05:02 PM:
 
Another question, these new reels appear to be taped down with some thin red tape.

Which I though was a good idea (stop it all falling out) but wouldn't this transfer gunk into your projector?
 
Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 31, 2013, 05:51 PM:
 
The tape is good to hold the film down and will only gunk up the projector if it leaves a residue when you remove it. I am always careful about treating the leader as if it is film...it needs to be free of sticky junk and tape residue. I always clean up the leader or replace it and I use white paper tape...works good and leaves no residue.

Do you have a set of rewinds? If not you should get some. It is always good to un-spool films on the rewinds (mounted to a bench) and inspect them and repair splices if needed. Maybe your reel is not wound tight on the reel and that is why it's spilling over. But never just pull on the film to make it tighter on the reel as this will damage it for sure. That's why you need rewinds. Then once you have inspected your film you can rest easy as the film is running through your projector.

By the way, welcome to a rewarding hobby.

Bill [Smile]
 
Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on January 31, 2013, 05:56 PM:
 
James

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!

PatD
 
Posted by Jeff Missinne (Member # 3373) on February 04, 2013, 01:06 PM:
 
Sounds to me like over-filled reels too. If your feature is on 1600' reels, moving it onto 2000' reels should solve the problem. If however it is already on 2000's, you will need to get an additional empty reel, and re-divide the film accordingly. You may find splices in the print at the points it may have originally been divided. Add new leaders and tails where needed, and you should be OK.
 
Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on February 06, 2013, 03:13 PM:
 
Welcome to the collecting world.

At one time you could get a reel the same size as 2000ft, but it held 2200ft it just ad a smaller centre. That may help iyou if you can find any.

One of my 16mm has a problem its starting to warp , but only at the inside end. I think this is a sign that vs is starting.
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on February 09, 2013, 09:37 AM:
 
Hi everybody,

OK, the A-D strips have arrived, so the reels will be going back in their cases today or tomorrow.

Reel 1 is most definitely over filled (2 & 3 have 20mm empty and 4 is only half full)

Since I put them on the side out of their cases the smell has faded, although it comes back (smell the side facing the desk)

Reel 1 has shrunk ever so slightly I think, with a set of rewinds (doing battle on ebay as we speak) I reckon it would be fine.

I also have a blank 1600' and 2000' on the way that I won off of ebay.

Request for personal opinions: If the AD strips go straight to the bad end of the colour scale, and you had bought this off of ebay where there was a statement about no VS, what would you do?

Thanks,

J1M.
 
Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on February 09, 2013, 12:24 PM:
 
James does it say anything about re-using the strips if there is no vinegar just curious.

[ February 09, 2013, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Jim Schrader ]
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on February 09, 2013, 10:15 PM:
 
It's very specific, each AD strip is ONE USE ONLY.
It also says that with good storage conditions they are good for a year.
Hopefully the unused ones have a shelf life than 12 months"
 
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 10, 2013, 12:02 PM:
 
I'm using some that are far older than a year and I think they are fine, albeit the results are not 'guaranteed'. You get a lot in a pack so there would be little incentive to re-use any. However, if someone had hundreds of films to test, I think there would be no harm in cutting strips in half in order to get more, as I can't imagine that the chemical reaction would be diminished as a result of a strip being shorter.
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on February 12, 2013, 12:57 PM:
 
As I have a total of 6 reels, I'm kind of hoping they do last a *lot* longer than a year!

They come in bags of 250 with a colour matching guide which is also a pencil for writing on the strips after you've measured.

They need to be stored air tight in the dark, although they do come in a zip-lock in a foil black-out bag (not resealable, but a bulldog clip and a desk drawer will probably suffice)

OK, strips are in (they stick together, it's easy to think you have on but it's actually 2-3)

24 hours at room temperature and normal humidity.

I reckon the problem is the plastic cans they came in. They're PROPERLY air tight, you can hear the air really hissing in when you open them, they're vacuum tight.

Also, reel 1 now fits (just) into it's can, so the film has definitely reduced in volume. Not a great sign methinks..

Oh well, nothing to do now but wait.
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on February 14, 2013, 01:35 PM:
 
Exciting AD strip update number 1:

They're still blue.

So blue in fact that I've moved the reels to a warmer room in case it's too cold in here (15C needs 1-2 weeks, 21C needs 24 hours)

Anyway, 48 hours in, 24 hours at 22C (30% RH, yes, weather stations are good for something) and they're still very blue.

So far, it looks like it's just what film smells like. Or what treated film smells like.

Huzzah.
 
Posted by James Neave (Member # 3472) on February 14, 2013, 05:08 PM:
 
Update:

If you use these strips, get a fresh one out the bag and compare them against that.

The colours on the matching pencil supplied don't match, they're too light and it's not clear.

After comparing them to the fresh strips and then again to the pencil, all four reels look like they are in the 0.5-1 range.

The scale is:
Also useful to know: Even at room temperature you can leave the strips in for several weeks and still get accurate results. After several months, the results may no longer be accurate. So you can't really "miss" the result, even at room temprature
 
Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on February 15, 2013, 07:16 AM:
 
Same scale applies to 8mm - I've had to destroy three prints, as the smell was a combination of paint, shoe polish, sharp vinegar and (like you mentioned), a medicinal lab - Could have been VitaFilm, but wasn't - Strip said danger zone - Store films (any gauge) in metal cans, loosely-winding (I find tight rewinds generate trouble actually) - In my case, original cardboard boxes, clean and as mint as I can find them, the oxides do not harm the emulsion, as there has been no incident these many years - I run my entire library (some undertaking), bi-annually, cotton swabs chemically clean as they rewind - Temps, 70 year-long, adequate A/C, etc, makes for happy screening - Cheers, Shorty
 
Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on February 28, 2013, 10:36 AM:
 
Here is an interesting thing I found out I too ordered up these strips and also have vita-film cleaner I attached one of these strips on the top of the can and closed it up leaving a small part not exposed the section that was exposed has turned the same color as number 2 that James referred to as freezer time is it possible that a film that was cleaned with this stuff could turn these strips into making us think that the film has vinegar?
-
I contacted the makers of vitafilm and here is there response:
It is entirely possible.

I had a discussion several years ago with an Eastman Kodak engineer
who admitted that many film cleaners will trigger a change to their AD
strips, giving a false reading. Vitafilm is one of them. Unless the
film is completely clean and free any organic oils, the AD strips are
not a reliable test for the presence of Vinegar Syndrome.

Sincerely,

William Stewart

[ February 28, 2013, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Jim Schrader ]
 
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 28, 2013, 07:15 PM:
 
I have not used Vitafilm so have no experience to go on. However, their claims to cure VS seem to be widely disputed, so collectors who are dismissive of their claims are liable to take a cynical view of a Vitafilm representative saying the substance itself can cause an A-D film to react, as it's an convenient response to anyone who tries Vitafilm to cure VS and then reports no improvement on A-D readings. A good test of this would be to do an A-D test on a polyester print treated with Vitafilm, as this won't have VS.
 
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on March 01, 2013, 01:30 PM:
 
Brilliant idea, Adrian.
Any takers?
 


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