8mm Forum: A Bauer Question

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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on June 24, 2013, 09:58 AM:

Does anybody know the differences between Bauer models P6, P7 and P8?

I have three. Two are badged Rank Aldis, one is obviously an early model which has the little A1/223 lamp, the second projector is a later model which feature a still device and uses the reflector A1/259. Both look almost the same except for a different design for the last roller assembly (and the still knob.)

My third projector is a Bauer P8 Universal Professional, again using the A1/259 lamp, but came with a zoom lens and a side cover with two round speakers in it. It has an On/Off switch, only one running speed, and the bass and treble tone controls are mounted in a concentric manner.

The colour schemes are different between the first two and the latter, but this may just be cosmetic for UK and Germany.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on June 24, 2013, 10:11 AM:

I do not know, but if anyone has a manual for the P7 Synchron, I'd love a scan :-)

Posted by Charles Peich (Member # 3791) on June 30, 2013, 09:37 AM:

Hello Vidar!

I have a sales brochure for 3 P7 projectors..... P7T Universal 300, P7 Studio and the P7 Synchron. It's 16 pages, and if you are interested I can send you a scan.

The big difference between the P6 projectors and the P7s is, in my opinion, Bauer added auto threading. Of course, everytime I make a statement like that, someone will come forward with additional changes. In the pictures they look similar in the layout of controls.

The P7 Synchron is somewhat similar to the P7 Studio, they both have synchronous motors, optical playback, and magnetic playback and recording.

I also have the instruction manual for the P6 Studio that may give you some useful information on using your P7 Synchron. If you are also interested in that manual, I can also send you a scan of the 26 page manual.

I'm a new member, but I'm set up to receive private letters. Long time lurker.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on June 30, 2013, 09:46 AM:

That would be nice, very kind of you! And welcome

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on August 13, 2013, 03:57 PM:

Bauer P6 built in the 1960....
3 main types:
1st: with 100V 500W P28s bulb
2nd: with 24V 250W bulb without mirror
3rd: with 24V 250W ELC (with mirror), same on all P7 + P8
Amps with different wattage and speaker specs (high ohms!)
All P6 have auto threading. Several modification to film entrance area, mainly in order to avoid film threading when film is on end. Several modification last rollers at end of film channel.
1st and 2nd (earlier types) have 3 claws, later models 4 claws.
All P6 + P7 have fixed 3 blade shutter or automatic switch over 2/3 blade shutter (3 blades at 18fps and 2 blades at 24 fps) with gives higher light output at 24 fps. (auto shutter = more expensive). Back cover fixed by many screws 7 ?
Exiter lamp cover modified.
3rd model: Back cover hold by 3 screws, only. This model is rather identical to P7, e.g. modified sprocket wheels, easier to adjust.
On P6 1st + 2nd Claw arm and cam was oiled from small oil container without cover (projector always upright!!)
From P6 3rd model + P7 + P8 a larger oval grease container with black cover had been employed. Earlier P6 models could be converted to grease container (conversion kit).
Colour of grease changed from dark grey to white grease with very improved performance.

Bauer P7 built in 1970....
further modification to film entrance area, pressure piece modified, Amps with higher wattage and lower ohms speaker out.
Door in front of lensholder /film path can be left off or open during projection (very convenient), were not possible on P6!
Modification to lens holder, to avoid burnt, deformed pressure piece, earlier models could be updated. All P7 have 4 claws (if not be replaced be 3 claws during repair)
On P7 and P8 pressure piece is lifted during auto threading, to make threading foolproof even on thin, soft mylar film
P6 and P7 have AC motor, 18 / 24 frames/sec. by shifting flat belt, improved fix lenses and zoom lenses,
Back cover hold by 3 screws, only (service friendly)
Many improvements inside projector and threading path (more relaiable, easier and faster service work)
P7 has been built over long period and in high quantity. Many spares still available.

Bauer P8 built in 1980...

almost identical to Bauer P7 beside following changes:
P6+P7 AC motor now replaces by DC motor and electronic control circuit board,
further modification to pressure piece, improved lenses,
Later models have additional friction (new, more parts)
Front painting now in gold, was silver on P7 and gloss silver on P6.
Back cover on P8 is in black colour and increased thickness.
Later models called " P8 Professional" have additional main switch to shut off transformer.
All P6 and P7 and earlier P8 models consume wattage vs. transformer as long as main plug is connected to wall outlet!!
All P8 have 2 blade shutter for bright image on screen. Disadvantage on 18 fps, flickering.
PS: P8 selecton has 3 blade shutter and is a total different maschine compared to P8.

Josef

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 14, 2013, 02:29 AM:

Josef
Thank you for such a fantastic detailed reply. It is very helpful.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on August 14, 2013, 07:07 PM:

[ August 15, 2013, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on August 14, 2013, 07:10 PM:

I'm no expert but I can add that as I currently happen to have two P8s (I'll sell one sometime), I have noticed several differences between the two, but suprisingly neither have the gold colour that Josef mentions - both are silver. Both of mine also have magnetic sound, so I don't know if that applied to all. It seems a shame that they stopped using the shutters that automatically change from 2 to 3 bladed, depending on the speed, that was a feature of the P7 and the Rank Aldis equivalent.

[ August 15, 2013, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 15, 2013, 03:23 AM:

I have a P8L Universal Professional (851-0094) which has a silver coloured operating side. The amplifier operating panel is black and red. It is optical sound only.

The rear cover and the side extension speaker are black.

It came with a Vario-Kiptaron MC f1,3 35-65mm zoom lens. Was this a standard fitment?

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on August 23, 2013, 11:50 AM:

@ Maurice,
Your P8L was built in 1988.

85% of Bauer 16mm film projectors have optical and magnetic sound.

They are defined as following:
P6 xx
P7 xx
P8 xx

e.g.
P7 S = silent, no sound
P7 L = optical sound, only (most have 24fps, only !!)
P7 TS = optical and mag. sound, plus still projection (most projectors are of this type)
P7 MS = optical + mag. sound, as well as mag. sound recording, plus still projection

Bauer P6 did also appear as P6 H = manual threading, opt. + mag. sound. The Bauer P6H is rather seldom.

Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on August 24, 2013, 04:51 AM:

Vielen Dank Josef, for this most interesting information on the Bauer 16mm machines. I have two P7 machines myself and I am most impressed by their performance. Very steady image and absolutely great sound reproduction.

You mention that especially the P7's have been made in high quantity and that a lot of spares are still available. I am looking for a spare pressure piece (druckstück) but Wittner's only have the ones for P6 and P8. I suppose neither of those would do the job ?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on August 24, 2013, 07:49 AM:

Josef - I'd be very grateful if you could please advise on any of these points:
Do you know if 1988 was the last year of P8 production? If not, do you know when the last were produced?
One of my P8s has the modified panel at the front that gives better access to the film path along the bottom before the film emerges at the back, so would all the projectors with this be the final model?
You mentioned "P8 selecton has 3 blade shutter and is a total different maschine compared to P8." I'd like a flicker-free picture for 18fps but does the 'P8 selection' have disadvantages compared to other P8s that I should be wary of?
If I could (e.g.) obtain one of the special 2/3 bladed shutters from a 'parts only' P7, do you happen to know if this could be successfully fitted in a P8?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 24, 2013, 10:23 AM:

The P8 was discontinued in 1990.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on August 25, 2013, 12:28 PM:

So do the P6 and P7 have synchronus brushless motors.

Meaning as I think the P8 is DC, is that a DC brushless or brushed motor then ?

Which would be the quietest between a 7 and 8 then. I once had an 8 was very noisey fan wise etc in the back. But heard a P6 was quite and another P6 and 7 were quiet like an Elmo CL.

Best Mark.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 30, 2013, 06:04 AM:

My Rank Aldis is a Series 2 Bauer P6. It has a capacitor start motor which is, presumably, AC.

My Bauer P8L has a DC motor (36 volt) fed by an electronic motor control.

They both run quietly, as a well maintained projector should do.

Posted by John Romein (Member # 4222) on June 18, 2014, 08:37 PM:

I have a Bauer P6 Studio and everything works, but it is very noisy. Before I use the projector I want to oil and lube it. I have the user manual but it does not give info on servicing. I also found a website (olafs-16mm-kino.de)that has a chart for oil and lube...but how to get the case open to do the inner lubing? Also, noticed on the website the service kit....does anyone know common oil and lube products that would be available locally in Canada? ie. I have Singer sewing machine oil....would that work for some of the oil?

Any other suggestions for getting the machine in top shape?

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on June 22, 2014, 05:16 AM:

Hi,
I have used 3 in 1 oil successfully in a Rank Aldis (Bauer P6) oil reservoir next to the shutter (Bauer P6) but I would not risk using it anywhere else in the projector. Try OTC for a service manual reprint. They are not not cheap and the printing quality is not always good though:
http://www.oldtimercameras.com/stock/Model.asp?Model=423&ModelPage=true

Posted by John Romein (Member # 4222) on June 23, 2014, 10:44 PM:

Thanks Paul.

To get at the oil reservoir do you need to crack open the projector case....and if so, is it as simple as removing the three allan key screws (front, top and back - middle of the case). Any tips when I open the case or is it very straight forward?

John

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on June 24, 2014, 03:03 AM:

Hi John,

quote:
On P6 1st + 2nd Claw arm and cam was oiled from small oil container without cover (projector always upright!!)
From P6 3rd model + P7 + P8 a larger oval grease container with black cover had been employed. Earlier P6 models could be converted to grease container (conversion kit).
Colour of grease changed from dark grey to white grease with very improved performance.

You will need to remove the back cover with an allan key as you say. My projector has the oil container which is easy to reach and near the top. Check whether you need to use oil or grease for your projector.

Posted by John Romein (Member # 4222) on June 29, 2014, 01:34 PM:

I finally opened my Bauer P6 Studio projector. It looks very different from the oil and lube plan posted on Olafs site ( http://www.olafs-16mm-kino.de/bauer.htm ). I suspect that is plan is for a Bauer P6 non-Studio projector. Does anyone know much about oil and lube points for the Studio version? I have photos of the inside of the projector.

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on June 30, 2014, 02:20 PM:

16mm film side of Bauer P6 Studio is very close to Bauer P6.
You can use a/m oil and lube plan for right hand side of projector.
Before starting I would recommend to spend an eye onto following items:
a) is claw mechanism still running very smoothly, not noisy?
(Most Studio Version had been used for more than 1000 hrs. and
strong wear has occured)
b) On sound strip side (left hand side) there are two black double spur gears -moulded in one pice - they are often brittle and have lost teeth or cracked. In that case magnetic strip side is defective, no use possible!!
If a) + b) is fine, carry on with lubrication. Do use the special lube and oils, especially white soft grease for cam lube!! Use never other brands here.
Good luck
Josef

Appendix:
Sorry, have started to read the posts backwards and learnt that your P6 Studio is already very noisy. Claw arms have to be replaced and adjusted. And most likely 2 double spur gears will be damaged. Don´t fill any oil into rectangular oil tank near shutter, fill up with special white grease,only.

Posted by John Romein (Member # 4222) on July 01, 2014, 02:28 PM:

Thanks Josef for your expert suggestions.

The projector hour counter is at 0670. And from what I know the projector was used at a national broadcasting TV station and well cared for. I suspect that the projector has been unused for many years (..maybe 20 years or more). This is the reason I suspect that it needs oil and lube to run smoothly....and before I run film through it.

Can I email you a couple of photos of the inside of the projector for your comments.

Is there anywhere that I could locally get the oil and grease?
How could I tell if the claw(s) need replacing?

Thanks,
John

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on August 07, 2014, 02:04 PM:

If a Bauer P6 still has old oil reservoir (rectangular, without black cover) I wouldn´t recommend to fill in any oil. It will result in a mess inside projector, as oil spreads everywhere around. Better to top up with special white grease as recommended by Bauer.
@ John
sorry for late reply. I just saw your question.
I don´t believe that you will get the greases and oils localy in your area. We sell it, so you know one source, if needed.
Picture could be sent to kt_welsch - at - web - dot - de
Please note, that I am by chance online, only. I have to visit a friend 6km away and emails are checked seldom, as I have to be spent more then 20 min. for deleting unwanted mails,each time. Faster will be by sending letter.

Posted by John Romein (Member # 4222) on August 18, 2014, 10:02 PM:

Thanks Josef.

I've sent you an email with images of the internals. The gears and teeth and the part that transfers drive top the audio side all look in great shape. While the case is split open I ran the projector and it runs very smoothly and quiet (the motor is the loudest part). I don't hear the claw, etc I did notice the "oil" container for the claw and gear and it is the open type found in versions 1 & 2 of the P6....and it looks dry. You mentioned to use the new grease instead of the original oil...do I just put this grease in the old container. It seems there is a felt wick that looks like it should draw oil for something...would this not be affected by the fluid type?

As the film side seems to be quiet when run by itself, it seems to point at the audio side as the noisy point. Everything seems to move smoothly when I turn things by hand...and no noise. Any suggestions as to where I might look for the noise (when the projector is together it sounded sort of grinding and rumbling).

Posted by John Romein (Member # 4222) on August 19, 2014, 02:02 PM:

While exploring further into the split open projector, on the audio side of the projector, I found a broken gear. I've taken some photos of the gear and sent them to Josef. It looks like a small metal wheel with a small black plastic gear ring around it...part of the plastic gear ring is missing. It looks like this gear powers the central (on the audio front it looks like it has film going on both sides of this wheel) drive shaft on the audio side. Is this correct?

Is there anywhere that I can obtain a spare part to repair this?

Posted by Edwin van Eck (Member # 4690) on September 09, 2016, 04:44 AM:

For many Bauer P8 projector, the cap of the grease tank is missing or damaged.

We have put these back in production again!

Bauer part number: 8 695 470 217

For more information: http://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0026.html?_globalsearch=pp-0026

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