8mm Forum: Sep Mag Print

This is topic Sep Mag Print in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 20, 2014, 02:10 AM:

I have a film which has a mute sound track. The English sound is on a separate magnetic 16mm film which is full coat brown perforated. A few feet in there is a mark which I assume is a start mark.

The mark is a square with a cross over it, either side is an arrow pointing to the square.

Where do I place it for a start? Picture head or sound head?

As for film itself, where do I start it from for sync?

I will, of course, be using two separate projectors.

Posted by John Vidler (Member # 3314) on July 20, 2014, 03:47 AM:

Hi Maurice,

My best guess would be is that, unless there is some marking on the mag track saying 'printing sync', the two films would be in level synchronisation. That is the 'X' of the mag track over the sound head and the 'X' of the picture in the gate of the projector.

Some picture leaders have a pattern such as '----->[X]<-----' on the leader to allow sound synching - if there is no obvious mark, try using the 'Picture Start' frame instead.

There may be a 'sync pop' on the '3' of the leader which may help verify the synchronisation.

Let me know how you get on.

Cheers

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 20, 2014, 04:09 AM:

Thank you, John

This is a Swiss television documentary, this is why the English commentary is on a separate track. The film has yards and yards of cream leader, then yards and yards of black leader, then the usual numbered countdown. There is no star or similar mark before the picture starts

However, the cream leader also has a mark similar to the one on the sound track, although this has letters, viz, P[X]S.

Whilst there are yards and yards of leader, there is only a short distance to the above mark.

Posted by John Vidler (Member # 3314) on July 20, 2014, 04:33 AM:

Hi Maurice,

That sounds like it could be the mark you are looking for - could 'PS' stand for 'Picture Sync' or 'Printing Sync'? I guess you will know when you run it! [Smile]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on July 20, 2014, 10:51 AM:

I always thought you needed a special projector that, in addition to the classical features, allows you to run a perfored tape. So I am surprised when you say you will use two different projectors.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 20, 2014, 01:59 PM:

It could be run on a double-band projector but as it's 16mm wide with standard perforations it can easily be run on a separate projector.

In my case it should be just to make sure both projectors are correctly laced and started together. It's a TV documentary so I assume it just has a commentary, with no need for perfect sync.

It's all-over brown and fully magnetic coated, it could be film although as it's so thin it could actually be tape.

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on July 20, 2014, 03:58 PM:

Maurice, it's possible that a normal projector can't read the magnetic film, as the sound may be recorded in an area where the picture usually is and not in the area of the soundtrack.
All the editors I've seen and also my 16mm magnetic recorder have the soundhead in the picture area.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on July 20, 2014, 04:21 PM:

Maurice,

The 16mm mag stock fullcoat soundtrack could have multiple tracks of audio on it, however chances are it is a full track recording (one single track across the whole fullcoat). I guess there is a chance the playback head on your projector might be in the right position, but mag stock is normally played back on a flatbed editor, an upright movieola or an Siemens mag interlock projector and I recall the sound heads on these are placed more in the center.

Doug

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on July 21, 2014, 12:04 AM:

maurice, if you ever want to sell that print please let me know as I have a dual system Siemans that I want to do demonstrations with but don't have a proper dual system print (only have work prints and sep sound)....

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 21, 2014, 10:12 AM:

This film is one of the 270 16mm recently purchased. Some titles have unfortunately turned pink, but not this one.

The film is Swiss Railways "100 years of the Vitznau-Rigi Railway". This railway was the first mountain railway in Europe when it opened in 1871. This 1971 50 minute film is printed on delightful Agfacolor, thus retaining its original colours.

The accompanying sep-mag film is described as Englisch.

I have run the sound track on my Elmo 16F and there is no sound. As has been suggested, the sound track must be in the centre where a picture would normally be.

I have been on the 'phone to a very well-known collector who says he has a Steinbeck which has the necessary facilities to be able to transcribe the sound track. The idea is to transfer the sound to a DVD which I can play on my 5.1 system. A CD was considered but that system is only a twin-speaker system.

As the collector says, there may not be a sound track still existing, perhaps somebody may have inadvertently erased it!

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on July 21, 2014, 11:30 AM:

The French television used also the double band system for some programmes ; I have a film with a separate soundtrack (but no double band projector). If a film coming from the Suisse television has an English soundtrack, it is probably because the film was shown on an English speaking channel but if it was brodcast in the early seventies, there are few chances that someone recorded it, but there are many railway enthousiasts in the UK, so who knows ?

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on July 22, 2014, 03:17 AM:

Maurice,
Maybe someone who has a Magnaflex double band projector could help? There were several versions produced by Burgess Lane and sold by Edric Audio Visual based on the Bell & Howell TQ projectors. The Mark 3 Magnaflex had centre track facilities and perhaps the earlier versions did too.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 22, 2014, 04:47 AM:

Paul
I have already found who can do a sound transfer for me.
We are considering either a CD or a DVD for the sound. It is hoped that the film just has a commentary without any lip-sync which may not require actual spot-on sync.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 02, 2014, 09:49 AM:

I have just heard that the sep-mag has a track in its centre. So that's a good start.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 23, 2014, 10:04 AM:

Now received two CDs of the transferred sound from a Steinbeck, one at 24 fps and one at 25fps, these were done in case my projector may be running fast. Fortunately, it's not lip-sync, only a commentary with music from a Swiss Oompah Band.

The transfer was done exceptionally well by someone we all know.

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