8mm Forum: WARNING against buying from Iceco/Magnatech

This is topic WARNING against buying from Iceco/Magnatech in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on June 23, 2015, 05:34 AM:

Hey all,

I posted this on the other forums, as I am hoping my 'getting the word out' prevents someone from going through what I went through.

This is a long post with lots of references, in hopes of saving someone from making the same money-making mistake I did. Let this serve as a huge warning against buying from ICECO/Magnatech for their 'NOS Projectors' (specifically, the B&H 2585/AML military projectors on Ebay).

Last June my wife/inlaws treated me to a surprise anniversary & Father's Day gift of (2) of the above mentioned projectors. I had minor issues when I first received them (socket issues), which I posted on the 16mm forum. Weeks later as I used them, I had much bigger issues, which if you are a member of the 16mm forum, can be viewed here:

http://16mmfilmtalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=30739&highlight=iceco

If you are not a member of that forum, the short version is that the film would be "jittery and bouncy" after threading (and sounded like it was chewing the film) and was unwatchable. Here's a youtube video showing one of the projectors problems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kxBvw2fFI&list=UUbOCSD8zrJjSz_0I_YkO3TQ

Upon Iceco receiving the projectors (less than 7 weeks after I got them, and still under warranty, AND shipped back at MY expense) they claimed they found nothing wrong and blamed it on the film I was using (I tested with 4 different types of film; ALL had the exact same problem). I wrote back that the projectors ARE in fact, problematic; that the 16mm forum alone has MULTIPLE people who have had issues; that the 16mm forum has rebuilders like Richard Burgess claiming he has had to repair multiple projectors that Iceco 'fixed'. I said they BETTER check again and fix it. I didn't want them sent back to me still plagued with problems, needing me to ship it AGAIN at my expense. Well, they 'claimed' to fix the problem, showing me a video from them and the projectors running ok (it should be known that the projectors would *sometimes* run ok on their own (maybe 1 out of 10 times). I got the projectors back...and problems were still there. I was disgusted at this point and wasn't wasting more money to with shipping sending it to them again, esp. since they already claimed 'nothing was wrong'. They absolutely would NOT pay to have it shipped to them (trust me, been there done that). They were VERY difficult to get responses from when I sent them back the first time, either by phone or email.

After pouring through the 16mm forum archives and seeing others who had identical problems, I also saw some comments from repair professionals who had stated things like:

"Sounds like the timing is not correct. ICECO is hit or miss when it comes to this, it is a very precise adjustment and even being off a little can cause this to happen".

"The rebuilding of a B&H 2585 takes a highly skilled expert to adjust properly, followed by some intense testing with different types of film. The specifications are critical. I doubt that Iceco go to these lengths. I have heard other stories of misaligned 2585's. Collectors have sent me some of these rebuilds for further adjustment".

" One of the issues with these New Rebuilt 2585's is that they have been completely taken apart and realigned with a new worm gear. These are extremely critical timing adjustments. I think the person who did yours didn't get it right."

After talking to one of the rebuilders privately, he offered me a price to repair them and have them set to "better than factory specs". At the time, funds were short so I waited. I finally got around to it this month -- Richard has recently repaired the projectors and had sent me a list of all the things wrong with both projectors. This is what he found:

-Claw protrusion out of specification.
-Sprocket timing off, causing incorrect loops, loss of loop.
-Loop restorer would not work, continuous tripping.
-Sound stabilizers way out of adjustment, virtually no tension.
-Speaker polarity off on one projector even though it is color coded.
-One projector had a mis-installed loop restorer cam. It was a hair loose and worked itself out of position.

This is a disgrace! To have this many things wrong, both after a rebuild (before selling) AND after it was sent back to them again? Unacceptable. And while some may say this was an isolated case, it wasn't. The 16mm forum has multiple cases of others who had issues with these projectors AND the exact same problems!

Point is, ICECO/Magnatech have a HISTORY of their 'repaired' projectors NOT being repaired correctly at all. I am out quite a bit of money in shipping to 2 different places (Iceco, and then the rebuilder as well, Richard Burgess), and the additional cost to have it fixed 'right'. My gripe isn't with Richard (quite the opposite, I am delighted it is now 'correct'). My issue is with Iceco selling a poorly rebuilt projector, and then doing a piss-poor repair after it was sent back to them, AGAIN (and initially claiming 'nothing was wrong, it must be your film').

I tried to contact ICECO about this whole matter via email last week, since there was too much to reference on the phone (original Ebay auction #, past repairs, etc.). I sent a detailed email to them last Wednesday morning, asking for their thoughts on the matter before I posted here. Still no response after almost 1 week. Suffice to say, I am done with them, lesson learned the hard way.

Bottom line: Buyer Beware! Think VERY carefully before buying projectors from Iceco. The warranty is USELESS, their rebuilds are a disgrace. Be prepared to have it serviced by someone OTHER than Iceco, if you do buy one of these projectors. I do want to publicly thank Richard Burgess for making this right. I only wish I went to him first as it would have saved me shipping (and headaches) to Iceco for 'warranty repairs' which were far from done correctly.

Thoughts and comments are always welcome.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on June 23, 2015, 09:55 AM:

David
Is this the ad to which you refer?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Howell-B-H-16mm-Sound-Projector-2585AML-UNUSED-MIB-Warranty-/311105992319?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item486f5cb67f
As you have found out, there is much more than just replacing the worm on a Bell & Howell. It requires much setting up of ancillary items.
The auto-thread will get out of sync immediately everything comes out of the machine. The loop former needs setting. The stabilising rollers often have seized.
I am glad that you have now got everything O.K.

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on June 23, 2015, 11:35 AM:

Hi Maurice,

Yes, that's the one [Mad]

I goofed above when I said anniversary/Father's Day gift...I meant 40th bday/Father's Day Gift (same difference, but still wanted to set the record straight). The wife and inlaws wanted to get my current 2592 projectors rebuilt for the gift, but also wanted it to be a surprise -- problem was I'd know if they went missing. So they thought they were doing the right thing buying these new.

It was bittersweet when they surpised me, as I already read horror stories on the forums about people who bought from Iceco. But I didn't want to say anything at the time and spoil the surprise or hurt their feelings. I just hoped I'd be lucky and the projectors would be fine. Far from it [Mad]

What a nightmare to say the least....hopefully my hell will prevent someone else from going through the same thing. If someone does buy it, better factor in the additional cost of shipping it to a competent rebuilder, and THEIR labor costs, as well. [Frown]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on June 23, 2015, 12:13 PM:

At $550 (U.S.) dollars on Buy It Now it was an exorbitant price, particularly as it did not arrive in the condition that was expected from the glowing comments on the eBay seller's web-site.

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on June 26, 2015, 01:25 PM:

Maurice, they make it sound like it's the best thing since sliced bread. That's why my family bought them. Yes, it's a HELL of a lot of money to spend on (2) projectors, but they felt (as others would, I'm sure), that:

A.) The projectors are new, so they'll last a LONG time.
B.) The dreaded wormgear is replaced, no worries there.
C.) Comes with a 1 year warranty

Like I said, my wife & inlaws wanted to get my current B&H's repaired (cracked wormgears) but they also wanted to be a surprise. Buying these solved both and they figured "Hey, it's NEW and comes with a warranty...how awesome is that?". So they got suckered in.

Points A&B are spot on, Point C is worthless. I have posted this in other forums and now more people are also commenting on having had problems, only to have Iceco claim that "nothing is wrong with it" when they took them back for warranty work (wasting money in shipping). Same line they gave me, even with video proof to the contrary.

Don't get me wrong -- the projectors are AWESOME -- esp. since they have a very rare B&H option: 2 bladed shutter. But the added cost I had to spend to get them 'truly right' really makes the $550 (each!) price sting that much more. Esp. considering these were 'supposed' to be perfectly tuned already.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on June 26, 2015, 05:24 PM:

The problem is they replaced the worm gear on them, even though they have never been used. They know the gears fail and even if they weren't cracked, they likely would at any time. However, their service techs probably do not have the considerable expertise and equipment to do it correctly. Some adjustments were likely out of spec.

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on July 04, 2015, 10:33 AM:

Barry, based on other purchasers' replies on other forums, that pretty much sums it up -- Iceco has no experience or know-how of how to properly put these machines back together after the worm gear is replaced.

But having someone spend THEIR money to ship it back 'under warranty', when it wasn't even right in the first place (and they have a HISTORY of doing this), is utter nonsense. Furthermore, denying anything was wrong in the first place (something that other purchasers have stated was told to them too) just adds insult to injury. And the final nail in the coffin is it still wasn't right after repairs, AND after I contacted them a few weeks ago (after proper repairs were made) they never even contacted me back. [Mad]

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on July 04, 2015, 11:40 AM:

You are absolutely correct David. They are terrible with their customer service. I have never been a fan of theirs based on EBay prices for parts. I have also heard that they store their surplus purchases in semi trailers that sit outside in the heat and humidity.

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