8mm Forum: Siemens 2000 16mm projector

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Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on December 27, 2015, 07:04 AM:

I have been asked for help with a shutter failure on this machine.
The shutter appears to be `free-wheeling`on the shaft with pic ghosting.
My question: is this a repairable job, or a bin job. The machine appears to have been built around this part of mech. Could be a sheared pin?
Any suggestions or drawings appreciated

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on December 27, 2015, 11:17 AM:

You will have to take a look inside the projector and get a feel for the mechanics of the shutter. My guess is it is either a pin failure as you suggested or a grub screw(s) that have loosened. I cannot imagine that a pin could shear off without having some significant damage to the shudder blade or blades. If it is just a grub screw issue, it should be an easy fix if the screw is still there. The issue you will have is getting the shutter and intermittent timing correct. Sometimes it is possible to see where the grub screw pressed against the shaft and if you replicate that, you should be ok.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 27, 2015, 12:22 PM:

Do take care to be sure it has already had the Asbestos removed before you start things blowing about etc.

Best Mark.

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on December 27, 2015, 12:40 PM:

Thank you for that gentlemen, I will now check further.

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on December 31, 2015, 01:44 PM:

Hello, it is very difficult to find out what´s wrong with Siemens 2000 if is isn´t in front of a Siemens skilled person.
Due to the fact that shutter can be altered fom 2-blades to 3-blades further failures can take place.
In order to make some intitial inspection to prove whether it it is still in original state check as following:
a) in center of inching knob arrow should point into middle off two line (two blades projection) and if you push it in and turn it to 3 lines (3-blades projection) arrow must show to middle (center line) of 3 lines.

b) outer diameter of 2-/3-blades knob must be flash with front face of inching knob (no step)

c) check shutter moves to 2-blades and 3-blades in accordance with arrow on center knob. Blades must be fixed in both position.

d) at rear end of shutter (aluminium casting) there is a cut out and a black screw should be visible, secured with grey paint.

Please check these items first.

Drawings, circuit diagramms, service instruction you can find here:

www(dot)olafs-16mm-kino(dot)de

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on January 01, 2016, 04:20 AM:

Many thanks for that information Josef.I believe the screw you describe may have sheared.
More examination to be done and I thank you again for your information and link.
Will advise progress.
Regards
David

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on January 14, 2016, 11:09 AM:

The projector is now with me, and I make the following observations:

The shutter is interesting, and clever. It does appear that there is a screw or similar missing
however, there appears to be a design fault as the screw thread depth looks as if it is LESS than the diameter, I was taught a definate no no in engineering terms. I am not sure if the screw was a grub screw or a cheese or pan head but perhaps M3 size. This thread looks stripped!

I think the fault may have been generated by one of the shutter sections hitting the motor cover, as there is a ding on the edge of one of the blades. Could be a chicken and egg situation following the screw failure, but the blades are very close to the motor slot.

Have considered removal of shutter assy, but there is a component tray to the right which does not want to move at present! If I can get at the shutter assy it may be possible to tap out the thin thread to M4. I can see the original witness mark fron the screw end so re-timing may not prove too difficult (we hope).
Any further comments very welcome.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on January 14, 2016, 11:32 AM:

I have no idea of this machine David, but as a fellow engineer, for security,use a grub screw with a gripping knurled base upon refit. I've replaced all my shutter retaining screws with sckt hd grub screws as a precautionary measure due to poor often soft metal pan head retaining screws they came with.

The grub screws grip far better and the the entire shaft assembly will be far better balanced in doing so, so long as you use an exact length grub screw.

This alone, should stop this happening in the future and will aid the thread to remain healthy by not having to revisit the retaining screw because of it working loose.

[ January 14, 2016, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on January 14, 2016, 01:06 PM:

That sounds positive Andrew and I thank you for that.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on January 14, 2016, 01:19 PM:

Good luck with it David and I hope someone volunteers an expert opinion on these machines to assist you further with the removal of the component tray.

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on January 15, 2016, 03:34 AM:

Thank you Andrew.

From the German service manuals that Olaf kindly refered me to,I have now learned that the missing screw appears to be a cheese head type but cannot determine the thread size (German Manual) and my comments about a re-tap of the stripped thread (may be M3)are invalid due to the very shallow material of the shaft. It may be that the stripped hole could be "closed-in" by careful preening to close the diameter down in order to re-tap.
The electrical assy I stated ,was in the way of the shutter assy, is in fact fixed to the motor main assembly, and removal of that complete assembly appears daunting.
This is a fantastic machine and deserves to live again!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on January 15, 2016, 07:41 AM:

Where there's a will, there's a way David!

I always look upon these things as a Chinese puzzle, remembering that someone put it together somehow in the first place.
It's just a matter of working out the puzzle, with or without a manual at times!

I'd go bigger with the tapped hole BTW rather than peining the hole over. Never would be the same as when originally tapped, or as strong.

Worn screw heads are at times our worst enemy where previously people have opted for the wrong driver!
Often it's easier just to pein these screw heads first before even attempting to remove if you can see noticeable wear to the head of the screw.

Best of luck David.

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on January 21, 2016, 06:39 AM:

Have expended many hours looking at this machine. The service manual (refered by Josef Grassman) which is in German, needs translation, so I purchased a PDF file converter to change detail to Word format in order that I could use Google Translate to make some sense of info. Good Idea (I thought) but translation was very sketchy!
The screw Olaf refered to in the shutter slot was missing and it is NOT possible to rotate the shutter control on the machine front,to change from 2 to 3 bladed mode. This failure does not appear to be covered in any tech info viewed.
I think that the sync relationship between the three shutter blade sections may be compromised.
I have now discovered a way of re-aligning the shutter sync, avoiding the need to remove the main electrical and motor gear.
However, in spite of following the placement of the three shutter blade sections to match the service data sheet, I still have no correct operation of the 2/3 bladed shutter function.
I feel that there are possibly variations in models of this machine, which are not covered within the service sheets I have accessed. Not being able to translate all detail doesnt help! I
have decided that I will spend a further 8 hours before I am forced to accept defeat, and hand this beast back to it`s owner!

[ January 23, 2016, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: David Fouracre ]

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on February 17, 2016, 05:39 AM:

If you can´t change from 2 to 3 blades old oil has glued the blades together. As there exist different design of blades and different length of screws I can give you here some general hints.

Remove M 2.3 mm screw at rear end. The spring loaded 3.5mm rod with disk and arrow in front moves appr. 1" out. (Don´t touch M4 screw, which holds front flange in position) Now you can take off rear flange and all 3 blades, step by step.
Clean both flanges and 3 blades with alcohol.
Two blades are 100% identical/ same. One blade is different (both slots are closed at end) That blade has to be placed in middle position (2). The two identical blades are mounted to the front flange (pos.1) and to the rear flange (pos. 3)
Refer to Siemens drawings, assembly as 2-blade shutter as decribed.

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on February 19, 2016, 05:08 AM:

Thank you Joseph, I am awaiting delivery of a tap to open-up to M2.5 the rear fixing you describe. The original having stripped.
I now realise that this machine has been "fiddled with" previously which has not helped. I appreciate your advice and am proceeding accordingly.
Another point I would raise, is regarding the lamp/ run control.
The printed logo behind the large knob, suggests that the knob is turned to switch-on the lamp, and then rotated further to increase lamp output. The lamp at present comes on a fixed level and does not vary in output with rotation. If this is a correct understanding, and the lamp does not increase in output with rotation, is there a resistance failure or similar.

Any pointers appreciated

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on February 20, 2016, 01:37 PM:

unterneath main control knob is a small knurled black knob. You have to turn it 2 rev. ccw. Then you should move end stop (nickel plated tongue) at outer diameter of main knob. If it wasn´t moved for years, it might stick and doesn´t move. Needs some solvent to get it loose.
Please note that Siemens 2000 is designed for 220V AC. In your country 240V mains is present. Therefore you don´t need to increase lamp current, as it will shorten lamp live.
100V 500W is max. 5A (original Lamp)
If you use 110V 500W max. current is limited to 4.55A!!
5% increase in nominal voltage will reduce lamp life by 50%!

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on February 20, 2016, 03:33 PM:

I thank you for that Josef. Definately a learning curve with this
machine.

I should add that the Google auto translate tag within Olaf`s manual info,does not function and brings up an apology. Makes the understanding more complex. However we soldier-on as this machine has got under my skin, and is a major challenge now!

UPDATE
Some progress now!!! Shutter mech now restored. Mechanism is very tight and stiff to turnover by hand, however lubrication appears not to be a problem.Slippage on drive belts results although they are not loose or worn.

Main rotary switch sometimes fails to bring in motor and/or lamp!
It seems that "resolve one problem and another takes its place".
It appears that there are two functions with this rotary switch ie: run machine with lamp (knob pushed in to turn) and run without lamp (when rotary turned without pressing in).

Any suggestions would be appreciated........

[ February 24, 2016, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: David Fouracre ]

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on March 03, 2016, 12:27 PM:

main rotary switch
rotate knob to 1st step: motor forward, 2nd step: lamp, turned further for adjustment of lamp current

push in knob
rotate knob to 1st step: motor backward, 2nd step: lamp, turned further for lamp current adjustment

The switches behind the front panel of main rotary knob have altered within years. From problems you describe I guess your Siemens 2000 has single switches with a fork. A thick wire moves fork to left side or right side.
Do you have that type of switches in your Siemens 2000?

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on March 04, 2016, 05:36 AM:

Josef, I thank you once again for your comments.

The main switch operates as you state in non-depressed mode but does not always bring lamp on. If in this position, I depress the knob, the lamp will illuminate whilst depressed. (Switch contact trouble I presume).However, when knob push in to reverse as you describe, the motor either fails to run, and the resistor assembly glows, OR the motor runs, but NOT in reverse!

You describe a variation of switch assemblies over the years and I advise that I cannot see the switches as the front panel behind the main control knob is kept captive by the momentary motor start button (non removable) and the main cover for the resistor and rotary stud attenuator for lamp, is not removable.
The top cover is, but the main cover fixings are not viewable.

From what I observed looking down thru the top of the switching unit, there is arcing taking place when turning to the lamp position. Removal of the main knob, shows the two "wiping berylium blades" are worn especially the inner wiper. Further examination after "tweeking" the blade outwards to increase contact pressure, shows that the inner fixed contact ring of copper is arcing and appears worn-out.
Maybe I should just rectify the contact problem, and abandon the reverse function. A bench rewinder is used anyway.

It may well be that the machine has to be stripped down completely, removing the motor assembly etc, to access the switching sub-assembly properly.
A view of assemblies in the manual shows the swiching unit as a block. I doubt a replacement is available now.
Again, Josef, your help has been much appreciated and your further pointers very useful.

[ March 04, 2016, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: David Fouracre ]

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on March 12, 2016, 12:17 PM:

Helo David,
very likely that I have spares for it.

regards
Josef

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on March 13, 2016, 02:59 PM:

Hello Josef,
The machine has been returned to it`s owner now, albeit without the reverse/rewind function. The owner is delighted to have it running, although I felt a degree of defeat as it was not "perfect".

I would be interested in your comments regarding correcting the reverse switching problem, and if in fact it would be nescessary to strip the machine to access same. I understand you may have parts available, but the access may be a step too far!

Again, Josef, I thank you for your input.

Posted by Josef Grassmann (Member # 378) on March 24, 2016, 09:19 AM:

Hello David,
advive can be given when I know what type of switches are built in, only.
I need a picture from rear side. Rear cover/power cable compartment removed.

Josef

Posted by David Fouracre (Member # 3883) on March 26, 2016, 05:49 AM:

Hello Josef
I am travelling down to BFCC next Saturday,with the owner (who now has the machine back) and will discuss the next possible move. If he wants to proceed further, I will arrange photo as suggested.

I do thank you once more for your support and interest.

David

Posted by Daniel D. Teoli Jr. (Member # 6043) on April 23, 2019, 09:07 PM:

I was wondering what the opinion is of this projector? (one that is working right.)

They look very well built.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 25, 2019, 09:55 AM:

Daniel
A great projector in its day, often used professionally, but nowadays maybe quite difficult to find a good one after all this time.
I have a catalogue from 1966 and the 2000 optical was quoted as UK pounds £299, and the mag/opt was UK pounds £400. The all singing, all dancing, double band model was UK pounds £665.
As a comparison, the Bell & Howell 642 was GB pounds £287.
Personally, I wouldn't touch one as there's too much to go wrong.

https://van-eck.net/itable.php?lang=en&size=2&cat=film&merk=151&type=2000

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