8mm Forum: Using 250w bulb in earlier elf machines

This is topic Using 250w bulb in earlier elf machines in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Jason Moffatt (Member # 4416) on December 01, 2016, 04:31 AM:

I have an st/m elf projector that takes 200w bulbs.I know its not recommended to use the 250w bulbs in these but what if i was to leave ithe switch in the "low" setting rather than the normal setting ?.

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on December 01, 2016, 04:01 PM:

Hi Jason,
The low setting will apply around 22 volts to the lamp which will then consume about 210 watts. This will still be a small overload on the lamp transformer. Bearing in mind the age of the projector of around 45 years you risk shortening the life of the transformer. The 200 watt lamps are still available and are a better bet.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on December 01, 2016, 04:10 PM:

Oups, I didn't know that these projectors accepted only 200 watts bulbs. i've just checked and the lamp Inside the projector seems to be a EJM 21v 150 watts ! I will replace it by a 200 watts but it is Strange to see that kind of bulb (I don't remember when I last replaced it).

Posted by Jason Moffatt (Member # 4416) on December 01, 2016, 06:14 PM:

Ok thanks paul, i was just curious as to if it would be ok on the lower setting.I probably wouldnt have tried it just in case.

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on December 02, 2016, 02:57 AM:

Eiki (Elf in the UK) projectors have a rating plate at the rear (operator) giving the lamp rating.
Hello Dom, your lamp will be overrun by the extra voltage and will be brighter than normal though I would expect it to have a short life [Frown]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 02, 2016, 03:55 AM:

As Paul says, refer to the plate on the left back side of the Elf for details of lamp required.
The earlier models used the 200 watt lamp (A1/252, EJL). Later models had the 250 watt lamp (A1/259, ELC).
I know this is the 16mm Forum but the same applies to the 9.5mm Buckingham conversions.
As mentioned, do not use the 250 watt lamp in a model designed for the 200 watt lamp. This could over load the transformer.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on December 02, 2016, 01:27 PM:

Thanks for these précisions. I checked the plate and my projector is a 200 watts bulb model. I'm still wondering why there was a 150 watt lamp in the projector...

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on December 15, 2016, 02:25 AM:

I'm going to have to disagree with the comments here, providing that the projector is calling for an EJL bulb as OEM.

If this projector uses an EJL bulb (200 watts) then upgrading to an ELC (250 watts) will be ok. I have done this on every projector I own that initially called for an EJL bulb after hearing discussions about it on another forum. And I have had zero issue, including running the projectors for double feature nights where the projectors ran for hours and hours.

And this quote is from Richard Burgess, who serviced Eiki's (The US version of the ELF) from back in the 70's and still does projector repairs to this day:

"For example, the Eiki's and Elmo's were originally designed for EJL, but all manuals were authorized and updated to accept either lamp. NO modification was done to the projector specifications or electronic components. My manuals from Kodak also authorized the ELC in the 250S in later editions. I never saw any modification to any component. The lamp components have no problem with either lamp.

I have never had a service issue with any of the 200/250 watt lamp circuit transformers in any of the Kodak's, Eiki's and Elmo's even though they initially came with EJL's as the OEM lamps. The only failures have been lamp socket contacts, not related to electronics. Contacts bend and then arc causing damage to the socket.

For what it's worth, he also said this:

You can use the ELC in the ST/M series Eiki's without a problem. The transformers are very robust and can easily handle either lamp.

Even the first RT series projectors came with the EJL lamps and stickers. The stickers weren't even updated for years in production runs even though ELC's became the OEM lamp for the projector. Owner's manuals were updated to say you could use either lamp. No electronic modifications were made, the same transformer from one series to the next, just some mods for the motors.

Hope this helps as the 250watt ELC bulbs do help with brightness esp. when projecting onto a larger area [Big Grin]

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 15, 2016, 05:36 AM:

Thanks for that updated information David.

Very informative for Elf users and it should set there minds
at ease and quell any worries they may have regarding the lamps.
[Smile]

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on December 15, 2016, 09:18 AM:

It may be that Eiki were unduly pessimistic regarding their projector transformers and little trouble has occurred using 250 watt lamps in the earlier projectors. Improved air flow cooling is a recognized technique to uprate transformers and perhaps this was done. Nevertheless Eiki may have changed the transformer without it being obvious.

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on December 15, 2016, 10:09 AM:

Paul, keep in mind Richard Burgess was selling these machines new back in the 70's and was an authorized repair source for them as well (and still is). His history with 16mm projectors is WELL documented on the 16mm forum.

I would tend to think that someone who has as much experience, history, and dealings with Eiki as he has (and being an authorized repair source), that he would have been "in the know" if there were any running model changes to the transformer (or anything else). I would also go as far to say he wouldn't risk people damaging their machines by providing incorrect information. The guy REALLY knows his stuff and spanning 40+ years of repairing these machines, I'd be more confident to believe him vs. what I read on a forum from someone who is less experienced in servicing the Eiki/Elf brand.

Also given the amount of people who I have encountered that 'upgraded' their EJL 200 watt bulbs to an ELC 250 watt bulb (myself included) with zero issues, further makes me have confidence in his statement. Of course, anyone is free to disagree if they wish [Wink]

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on December 15, 2016, 12:55 PM:

David,

I've no problem with Richard's knowledge and experience or your own for that matter which is greater than mine. Richard says it's the same transformer - fair enough. However someone like me, with limited experience of the ST/M machines, buys a 45 year old machine with a rating plate that states 200 watts can be forgiven for assuming that Eiki meant what they said for that particular machine.

At least anyone has a choice - go for 250 watts if light output is important or 200 watts to play safe. Good luck to everyone who want to take your advice.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 15, 2016, 02:57 PM:

My Elf M1 says 200 watt lamp on its plate, and that is what is fitted. This model has its low/high switch on top of the transformer. I have owned it for 26 years and have never needed to switch to the high setting, even for shows in a hall using a 6ft wide screen.

I have never considered using an ELC lamp in it, for me, there is no need.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on December 17, 2016, 05:55 PM:

I have brand new lamps 200watt and 250 watt for sale

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