8mm Forum: 3 claw benefit?

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 15, 2018, 04:52 PM:

Some of you will know that i use the Eki Nt1 projector which is a two claw machine.
As i understand it most 16s use a three claw, i guess the advantage to these is that they would be more forgiving when projecting films that may have a little damage. Please correct me if i am wrong here.
Are all the Elf's two claw?

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 15, 2018, 09:18 PM:

Hi Tom as far as I know all Elfs are 2 and so as far as I know are Elmo`s.

Though Elmo`s tend to be more forgiving apart from the 16AA, which has thinner s claw/pins.

I always found Elmo 16A`s deal very nicely with film.

Its also so to with the eliptical sort of type swing and the less handy way the claw on Elf``s/Eiki`s move.

Many of the Bauers have 4 pin claws.

A nice Bauer P8 you would be well away with just about anything.

Also much better focussing than an Elf.

A rewormed B+H is very good too ( 3 pins ) but personally I`ve never liked the look or feel of them.

Best Mark.

Posted by Nantawat Kittiwarakul (Member # 6050) on January 15, 2018, 10:15 PM:

OTOH,those 3 (or 4) claws projector would be less forgiving for shrunken films. The design engineer might had that shrunken factor into account when designing the claw,to a certain extent. [Roll Eyes]

Beyond that limit,the film will just keep slipping/losing loops then.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 16, 2018, 03:36 AM:

Some good replies here, Tom.

Three (or four) claws will assist damaged film, but perhaps will not to be happy with shrunken film.

The important thing when having bought a 16mm film is to resist immediately showing it, but to meticulously examine it frame by frame on a rewind to check that all joins are sound, remaking any which are suspect. Also, such things as torn perforations should be repaired on a CIR with tape.

All the above should ensure the film will project on your Eiki without a problem.

As is well-known, I have many projectors, particularly 16mm. These have two, three and four claws, and I must admit I have never had any trouble with films on any of them.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 16, 2018, 04:31 AM:

Hi Tom if you have a little sprocket wear or pull you will notice it on an Elf quite a bit, depends how you feel with the noise.

I know some of the very thin polyester LPP prints can stuggle in them too.

Film can get through anything most times, but if it sounds off it can be very off putting.

One film will run fine on one machine but very noisily on another.

If it were me, rather than going all the way to Nottingham I`d invest that cash etc in a Bauer P7 or P8 or TQ3 with a new worm gear myself.

just a thought.

Best Mark.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 16, 2018, 05:02 AM:

Oddly enough all the polyester prints i have glide through no with problems or noise.

[ March 17, 2018, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]

Posted by James Wilson (Member # 4620) on January 16, 2018, 05:29 AM:

Hi Tom,
No one has mentioned the Rank Aldis 16mm projector which has three claws, I have two of these and am completely happy with them, although similar to the Bauer you will find them a bit cheaper.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 16, 2018, 06:18 AM:

I have two Rank Aldis, the older one has three claws, the newer one has four claws.
The early model uses the small A1/223 lamp.
The later model has a still device and a revised pulley arrangement just before the take-up spool. It uses the A1/259 (ELC) lamp.
They are made by Bauer and based on their P7 model.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 16, 2018, 06:44 AM:

You do need to be sure you avoid the earlier P6 Bauers rebadged as Ranks as some have asbestos in.Later P6`s and on are Ok on that front.

Its usually the very thin lpp features with foreign subtitles from Ferrys etc that struggle on elfs.

Best Mark

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 16, 2018, 06:46 AM:

I like the look of the Bauer and Rank Aldis, unfortunately, having spent a fair bit on Len's for my NT1 including a scope bracket for it i think i would be wise to stick with the Elf's.
Having said that, if another projector was in excellent working order and was cheap cheap i would certainly opt for a second player. My NT1 is an ex Plymouth College machine, it does what it has to do but like my Super 8, i think only having one machine is a bit fatal. [Wink]

BTW, thank you to everyone so far for the replies, some very good info on here. [Wink]

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 16, 2018, 06:50 AM:

Hi Tom well the actual projection lenses will fit the Bauer as also 42.5mm so apart from needing a Bauer scope bracket you would be OK.

You could look for a later Golden SNT elf slot loader, quieter and seem to be a little easier on films.Very nice to use and look at. Tend to focus slightly better than swing out gate Elfs too.

Best Mark.

[ January 16, 2018, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Mark Todd ]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 16, 2018, 07:23 AM:

Yes i like the look of the later gold machines

[ January 16, 2018, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on January 16, 2018, 09:26 AM:

I was alarmed by Mark's reference to "sawing out gate Elfs" but then realised that the intended word must have been swing!

I'm certainly a fan of the 'last generation' Eikis, which have certain design refinements including larger sprocket wheels which are supposed to be more gentle on films. But I'd say the auto threads are at least as good as the slots loads, and at least in my experience, more reliable; I have an ENT that I consider the best 16mm projector I've ever owned. Don't consider them exclusively gold as they can turn up in the smart black/grey colours used when they were 're-badged' as Bell and Howell projectors. In most cases, these are virtually the same as the equivalent Eikis.

I have a Bauer P8 and I haven't noticed any problem with shrunken film, so I suspect the shrinking has to be very bad for this to be an issue. It might make sections of damaged film look a bit more unsteady, because the shrinking could mean that not all the claws are touching the film.

You occasionally find films with many instances of two consecutive damaged sprockets, so using a 3/4 claw projector in such cases could certainly save a lot of time spent on restoration.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on January 16, 2018, 09:47 AM:

Tom you will do well to follow Maurice's advice.
Check your prints by hand whether they be 16mm / 8mm / 9.5mm or even 35mm on a film rewinder and bench before projection.

I do this every time I buy a second hand copy and make all the repairs as it makes sense and can save further damage to the print or even your projector.

I once bought a Super 8mm print where some numpty decided it would be a great idea to make a join using a paper staple.

Imagine the damage that would have done to the machine.

So always hand wind and check the perforations and splices and for any V cuts first. ... You know it makes sense. [Wink]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 16, 2018, 10:12 AM:

David, yes i also recieved a super 8 print with two staples.i simply couldnt believe how stupid some people are.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 16, 2018, 10:36 AM:

I`ve had that Tom a film full of staples used as splices on 8mm and 16mm twice over the years.

Amazing !!!!

Its a shame Bauer did`nt make a home 16mm machine as nice and quiet and homey orrientated as their 8mm offerings.

Best Mark.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on January 16, 2018, 12:01 PM:

If it's a quiet 16mm projector you're looking for, then the RCA Hollywood is the one to go for. Kind to film and deals well with damage. Beautiful valve amp gives great sound reproduction. I've had many 16 mm machines and this has to be my favourite. They seem to be few and far between these days though.

Posted by Neil Massey (Member # 5081) on January 16, 2018, 12:41 PM:

Tom, I have owned the Elf NT2 since new and it was always more sensitive to any print imperfections: the picture would start to stutter and it would get noisy. The same prints would run on my Debrie (triple claw) without a problem. I had gone down the route of getting a Bell & Howell, TQ3. However, after taking my Elf to Kevin Brown it now runs beautifully. Prints that caused issues, project with a problem and it runs really quietly. Like you, I have the scope lens and the 38mm lens for it so thank goodness for Kevin.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 16, 2018, 01:08 PM:

Neil, i think i may have been lucky with mine, it definatly is in need of, and will get, a professional service from Kevin, but bearing in mind i pulled it apart myself as best as i could, serviced up the cam tank and freed off sticky linkages, it actually performed quite well, the newer films go through with no problems, i have now film guarded all my 16mm prints and it has improved things a 100%.
I was dubious of using the cleaner on 16mm after hearing how it can cause a problem, especially the B & H models, it sometimes caused the film to slide through the gate too much causing an unsteady image.
I was also quite surprised to hear that many people never clean there 16mm prints.
The 3 claw question was something i came across after reading that they often handle damaged films better, i guess the best thing to do is to either, buy better condition prints or, as you chaps say, check every print rigorously before putting them through, which we do. [Wink]

Mark, those Bauer 8mm's really are quite but if you use them as often as i do the 1200HD's you would need to ensure you have several spares for the frame and claw etc as they would wear more rapidly than projectors that use all metal in the parts.
After my unlucky encounters with one i was advised by a repair specialist that i am better off with the HD due to the amount i use them. The reason they are so quite is because of the amount of plastic parts they use. Darn fine machine though i have to say. I was just un-lucky and sending it all the back to Europe and getting it back exactly the same was the final straw for me, especially when the excuse was,"the second track is never as loud as track one!!. The machine was bollocksed.
I assume there 16mm machine are built far sturdier.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on January 16, 2018, 11:22 PM:

Hi Tom

I have both Eiki and B/H projectors, but have found this B/H 1680GS Slot Loader my pick. With its ease of threading or un threading, plus its "three claw" pull down, this projector has been really good on any film I have run through it. In the 20 years of use it will seldom lose a loop. I had friends that would not use anything but Eiki, and what I saw with the number of times they would lose a loop during screening films, did not impress me.

Although those cases might be down to the film, but its something I seldom would see with the B/H Slot loader, its very forgiving and after constant 20 years of use I am more than happy with this particular model of projector.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 17, 2018, 01:30 AM:

Thanks Graham, i use to have a b and h tq2 specialist,(or was it a tq3, i cant remember), and have to say it was a very good machine and i never had a problem with it, unfortunstly when it eventualy developed an electrical fault i chose to give away. My error, but at that time we were going to bow out of 16, your slot loader looks a very smart machine [Wink]

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on January 17, 2018, 05:08 AM:

My BH TQ3 is very kind to damaged and warped prints. I've accumulated several old titles going back to the forties at least and have had no problems so far.
Agreed that it's a good idea to have a rewinder so as to check incoming prints for outrageous things like staple joins and the like, though.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on January 17, 2018, 05:38 AM:

Graham I use one of those B&H 1680 slot loaders too.
My one has also been very reliable too and very kind to prints.

However I do find that the projector run/lamp control dial gets a bit hot after being on for sometime.

How is your model regarding this ?

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on January 17, 2018, 11:46 AM:

It does get warm also, but not to hot David [Smile]

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