8mm Forum: Tape Splices Loosing Loop

This is topic Tape Splices Loosing Loop in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on November 01, 2018, 01:54 PM:

Recently ran some 16mm films that during projection (I hadn't run them for some time) the loop was lost. I inspected and repaired each problem spot and the issues were the usual damaged sprockets but I did find several tape splices that were the culprit. They looked OK, but did cause the loop problem. I redid them with a cement splice and the film projects fine now. I wonder if the tape splices had shrunk to the point of causing the problems? Note that several films had this exact problem.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 01, 2018, 02:53 PM:

It is regrettable that tape splices do not seem to last forever. They develop a "hinge" effect which when used in some projectors do not form a nice loop.
This can sometimes cause the loop former to in-operate. In badly maintained projectors the loop former may have become seized due to lack of lubrication. This may cause some damage by the claws to the perforations.

Posted by Nantawat Kittiwarakul (Member # 6050) on November 01, 2018, 09:00 PM:

The tape might stretch up a bit,just enough to cause chaos when projected.
Or some projector just doesn't like tape splice at all,regardless how well it was made. [Frown]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 02, 2018, 06:05 AM:

Maurice, thats funny you mention older splicing getting a hinge effect, i found this for the first time on a film we bought. The only splice in the film and although my old NT1 will take almost anything that hits it, the loop restorer works perfectly on this one, i put this through my recently acquired SL2, it performs perfectly, but this one would not restore the loop, i had to stop the machine which was a wee bit annoying. So i am guessing there is an adjustment required in there somewhere.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 02, 2018, 07:17 AM:

Tom
It is most important that the setting of the loop restorer position on an Eiki/Elf is correct.
Too far forward and it will be often touched by a perfect loop. Too far backward will not catch any film at all.
These projectors are not my favourite. Last Sunday I returned from Kevin Brown with my NT-2, now fully serviced and all working perfectly. The loop former should be at the 7.30 position.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 03, 2018, 04:46 AM:

On my NT1 it works really well, as you say the lower restorer is set at 7.30 position, on my SL2 it appears to be a bit more involved.It defiantly doesn't seem to restore lower loop loss so i will need to look into it further [Wink]

[ November 04, 2018, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 04, 2018, 01:01 PM:

I have 2 Elf machines and whenever I hear the loop restorer I have a fear of dread..it usually means that the film keeps running, but with newly torn sprocket holes.

As a device to keep 16mm films running back in the day it was probably a good idea, but these days, if you value a print, a good inspection on rewinds before projection is the best way.

I suspect that poor quality splicing tape may add to the problem with older films. Both my Elfs run good tape splices no problem.

However, I have found that when auto loading it is a good idea to manually adjust the lower loop to give a couple of extra frames clearance of the loop restorer.

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on November 04, 2018, 01:23 PM:

Wow, I had thought this tape splice thing was unusual. I was running the films on my trusted and well maintained JAN. It handles cement splices and the usual damage well with its excellent design and 3 claw pull down. I was stunned the tape splices were the culprit. Always learning something new. I used to hate the idea of redoing a tape splice with a cement splice due to the loss of two frames. That is just 1/12 of a second of screen time. Big deal. For me it is cement splices instead of tape.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 04, 2018, 03:53 PM:

Rob, i normally run films on rewind arms before projecting, scilly thing is, because i was winding and cleaning this print the one splice seemed fine. i made the mistake of not actually stopping at the splice and checking it. ive never had any problems with my own splices, i only use decent splicing tapes/rolls, however, it never fails to amuse me at some of the awful splices that i find in prints i buy. fortunately, most of the 16mm prints i have bought have generally been very very good, but my last couple have had cellotape type splices. utterly dreadful and once i pulled it apart the sticky residue was like thick glue. I just dont get some people doing this.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 05, 2018, 06:08 AM:

Tom makes a good point.
Resist the urge to put a newly acquired film straight on a projector to view. It could be full of bad joins and damaged perforations.
I always examine a new film very slowly on a rewind and check every inch. I once found a join made with a staple!
It's worth the time and effort so that you know that its eventual run will be faultless and enjoyable.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 05, 2018, 06:37 AM:

We did have a super 8 film turn up once with two staples. I could not believe it until i saw others on here had the same. Luckily they were the only two joins and the rest of the film was fine. Clearly someone who was selling off for a relative or friend and didn't have the correct equipment to do the job properly.

Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on November 06, 2018, 11:55 AM:

It isn't only the lazy or uninformed that staple films. I once hired a feature from a library and found a break in the film was stapled. Fortunately, I never put anything on my machine without checking it, so I discovered it immediately. Can't think what might have happened. Every collector should have a pair of rewinders. It saves a lot of heartache and not a few shows. I always recheck any film from my library before I show it as some go years before seeing a projector, thus allowing tape splices to fail.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on November 06, 2018, 12:07 PM:

Agree there David, all my films, even short trailers, are all bench rewound. Also checked & cleaned before anything goes through the projector [Wink]

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on November 06, 2018, 11:35 PM:

Tom I too have been amazed at the incredibly poor splices on prints I have purchased. I have seen many cement splices that look like they were done by scraping the emulsion with something sharp and then applying a boat load of cement and holding the pieces of film pressed together between two fingers...

A good set of rewinds are a must in my book.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on November 07, 2018, 06:25 PM:

I suspect in the days of rented or borrowed films, the film might have broke, and renters did not have splicing equipment. They joined the film break past the gate with whatever they had and viewed the remainder of the film. Then rewound it and returned it without mentioning the break.

Posted by Nantawat Kittiwarakul (Member # 6050) on November 07, 2018, 08:26 PM:

Speaking about bad splices...

Ever seen anything worse than these? [Eek!]

Eventually spent hours fixing these mess,ahhhhhh. [Mad]

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