8mm Forum: What should I aim 2 collect?

This is topic What should I aim 2 collect? in forum 16mm films for sale/trade/wanted at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Vangelis Lympouridis (Member # 1753) on October 06, 2009, 07:51 PM:

Hello all,

I was wondering since there are so many experts and super collectors here that it would be great to guide us a bit(us newbies)about what we should aim to collect...and how
There are many ebay auctions and physical stores around selling 16mm films. Are there some tips? or tricks? Should we pay more attention on the quality and color of the print-film? (fuji,kodak etc) rather than the subject? Is it all personal taste and decisions?
I personally like faded colors as they offer an original aesthetic. Does it means that film will disappear sooner than I think?...
Any tips are more than welcome...
Thanks in advance
Vangelis

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on October 06, 2009, 09:22 PM:

Vangelis,

It is personal taste and decisions.

One of the things about collecting film is that in a certain sense, the 'selection process' of what to buy can be a bit upside down:
With DVDs, you can pick exactly the titles you want and know the quality will generally be decent across the board; with film you sometimes wind up looking at what titles are available in a good print at a reasonable price.

So sometimes one may buy a film because the print is good, not because it necessarily is your absolute 'first choice' of film, but one you are ok with having because it is fun to screen a nice print.
If there is a film you can't live without, sometimes a worn print can be acceptable, but that is where your own quality standards come in. What can you live with? How many scratches, how much sprocket damage?

Do not willingly buy anything with Vinegar Syndrome; that's my opinion.
Red prints are very common. They vary from a little fade to hideously red. Thank Eastman stock for that. I hate them and do not buy them at all, but if you really want a film badly enough, that might be the only print you find. Again, what can you live with?

READ VERY CAREFULLY when you read film descriptions. Some sellers will bury major flaws in the middle of the film description, such as 'reddish' or similar. If in doubt, send questions to the seller and get very explicit about the condition of the film.

Finally, if a print is advertized as a 'TV print' keep in mind that with B/W films, the contrast (black levels) will be lighter than on a theater print, since these prints were made to look good on older TVs. The prints can be very nice, but with somewhat "milky" blacks.

These are just a few thoughts from me; I am sure you will hear from the veterans here too.

Claus.

Posted by Vangelis Lympouridis (Member # 1753) on October 06, 2009, 09:43 PM:

Thanks a lot Claus,

That was fast!
I would like to ask you something about the vinegar syndrome in case you know. I have read a lot about it, but is it something that the seller is obliged to mention? Is ebay and paypal f.e aware so that I can claim a refund or return in case the seller doesn't mention it?
Also I ve noticed extreme price range differences... How can I tell what is the real approximate value to what I buy?
Finally, how important is to get original film and not copies and how can I tell?
F.e. I ve bought some wwii footage.. Is it really old? or could that be a double copy from the 60's? can I tell from the scratches-marks or the film type?
All best
Vangelis

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on October 06, 2009, 10:20 PM:

Vangelis,

Some sellers are dishonest; others are ignorant of what they are selling.

A good seller should tell you everything he knows regarding the condition of the print he is selling, but that's unfortunately not always the case.

Many sellers hide behind "I don't have a projector, so I have no idea about how the film looks." Getting your money back is not always easy either. Even if a film has vinegar syndrome, the seller can plead ignorance, and it may take quite an effort to get some money back.

Some sellers simply put "no returns, no refunds" on their E-Bay listings, at which point it's up to you to ask everything you can before bidding, or simply cross your fingers and hope that the cheap price you got the film for is worth it. It can be a gamble.

Most pricing in collecting is set by what the seller thinks he can get, and what people ultimately are willing to pay.
The great Technicolor prints in 16mm increasingly go for small fortunes, to collectors with that kind of spare cash (of which I am not one [Big Grin]

)

There are ways of ID-ing duplicate film stocks (edge numbers and such) so you know if it is a dupe (and I know very little about that) but things like excessive grain and excessive contrast can be visual clues that most likely you have a 'dupe.'
Is it important to have an original? If you like the dupe you have, then no.

You will find, by interacting here, and also at:

http://www.16mmfilmtalk.com/

that you will find out who the good reputable dealers are (as well as some of the shady ones.)

Good luck with it all, and welcome aboard.
Claus.

Posted by Vangelis Lympouridis (Member # 1753) on October 07, 2009, 12:34 PM:

Any more advice? opinion? comment?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on October 07, 2009, 01:34 PM:

Hi Vangelis,

Regarding TV print density and the more washed out look, this was mainly the case for earlier prints made for TV - later prints could be as good as or close to theatrical density. I have a TV print from 1971 which has excellent contrast.

Check this site out for some tips on different film stocks and types of soundtrack:
http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htm

Welcome to the hobby.

-Mike

Posted by Vangelis Lympouridis (Member # 1753) on October 08, 2009, 02:09 AM:

Thanks Michael,

TV print means that a film was projected and broadcasted live I suppose...
Thanks for the tip...
Do prints fade over time? does anyone know what is the life expectation of a film?
and how to extend it?
thanks
Vangelis

ooops... no worries,,, got it
http://www.paulivester.com/films/preserve.htm

Posted by Ronnie Sortor (Member # 1652) on October 17, 2009, 08:10 AM:

Another thing to remember about TV prints is that they are usually edited for content. Language, violence and/or nudity will be cut out. Widescreen films will of course, be panned & scanned. Another thing I've unfortunately discovered the hard way is that for some reason, some older movies originally filmed in color will be reduced to B&W for their TV prints as well! I'm a relative newbie to 16mm myself but even with some disappointments like these and coping with faded prints, it can still be a very rewarding hobby!
Two more pieces of advice: Get yourself an anamorphic lens and keep reading these forums!

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