8mm Forum: WANTED: Mains transformer for Bauer P6 Synchron projector

This is topic WANTED: Mains transformer for Bauer P6 Synchron projector in forum 16mm equipment for sale/trade at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 09, 2007, 05:44 AM:

Sadly, I have discovered that the mains transformer of my Bauer P6 Synchron projector has gone open circuit on the primary.

If anyone has a suitable replacement, or knows where I can obtain one, I should be very grateful.

Thanx.

Posted by Tassos Laudas (Member # 588) on March 10, 2007, 09:17 PM:

David, it seems that entering the 16mm world isn't so easy as we thought! It's worth trying though. I just wanted to let you know about the following ebay listing (item 180094406614)
which might provide you with useful parts, transformer included. If you choose to bid i'd advice you to ask for a photo of the inside-rear casing removed-just in case it's already taken!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BAUER-P 6-automatic-16mm-Projektor-defekt_W0QQitemZ180094406614QQihZ008QQcategoryZ28891QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 11, 2007, 03:38 AM:

Thanks, Tassos. However, not suitable unfortunately.

I don't honestly think I'm finding it difficult to enter the world of 16mm. I have a super Ampro 16mm projector, just about to take delivery of a Pentaflex 16mm cine camera with all the toys, so things aren't looking too bad.

The Bauer was given to me, so there's no problem there if I can't get it to work - it was just a bit of a bonus, that's all.

Don't give up, Tassos. It really shouldn't be that difficult.

Best regards,

Posted by Tassos Laudas (Member # 588) on March 11, 2007, 05:51 AM:

Ok then David! by the way i am wondering, have you managed to make the Bauer work? If yes, how does its rendition seem compared with the Ampro?

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 11, 2007, 09:28 AM:

No. No joy with the Bauer. I'll hang on for a few more days, and if nothing turns up, I'll junk it.

I don't have anything to compare the Ampro with, though I understand, according to various Forum members, that Eiki/Elf NT series and later, and the Elmo 16-CL are about as good as you can get of the more modern machines. I'll probably end up with one of those myself as a second machine, but I'm afraid I've got the Ampro bug - 'Amproitis' - I simply love it.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 11, 2007, 01:29 PM:

David

Just out of curiosity and of course accepting it is not a solution, in an extreme case is it at all feasible to acquire a transformer that may not fit into the casing but that could be wired up externally to supply the internal pick up points. Messy I know but has anyone done it?

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 12, 2007, 09:40 AM:

Hi Tony,

Already thought of that, but the tranny is a bit special - take a look at this:

45-volts and 12-volts for the amplifier
24-volts for the lamp
0v - 28v - 32v auxiliary supply

That's a bunch of 9 wires to run between the tranny and the machine. I've searched RS, Farnell and a multitude of transformer catalogues, and there's nothing remotely resembling the number of secondary windings, let alone the rated current required. Even transformers from other Bauer P6s won't do. It has to be the Synchron version.

Looks like it's a job for the trash!!

Thanks for your thoughts and concern, though.

Best,

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 28, 2007, 04:21 PM:

David,
The Bauer P6 syncron -is that the double-band version that takes film on one side and magnetic tape on the other? I have one of those and am very fond of it -I´m just curious: how come the tranny broke down?

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 28, 2007, 04:47 PM:

Hi Lars,

No. It isn't the double band version. It simply means, according to the manual, that it is fitted with a synchronous motor so that the speed is locked to the mains frequency and therefore should remain perfectly steady with no wow or flutter to the magnetic stripe film sound track.

The projector was given to me absolutely free, as the previous owner acquired it together with a consignment of other cinematographic equipment, but had no need of it. He never tried it out himself. The tranny was kaput from the word go, so I have no idea what caused it.

Anyway, that's all academic now, as it has already been binned!

Thanks for your interest, though,

Best,

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2007, 12:23 AM:

David,
Very sorry to hear that about your Bauer P6 syncron. [Frown]

I wanted to ask you about the broken tranny in case there was some "do not attempt this at home" thing one ought to know about. [Wink]

On the lighter side, the P6:s aren´t exactly rare, here´s one:
http://www.super8film.at/ (tonfilmprojektoren, bottom right: 199 euros)
I think (hope/pray) this dealer is trustworthy as I´ve bought things from him just days ago (haven´t arrived yet). The P6 (and P8) is built like a tank, you can interchange lenses between it and Eikis, and it has a 4-claw pulldown, so it´ll even run very badly damadged film + it stops immediately should the film break/run out. I find the latter particularly good, as I can leave the room and let a film run out if I´ve seen what I needed to see. Not so with the Eiki, when it runs out you need to be there to avert disaster... [Wink]

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 29, 2007, 01:49 AM:

Yes, it was a pity, but quite frankly it was beyond repair apart from getting a transformer from an identical machine, which are very few and far between. She wasn't in the best condition either, but I was going to use it as a second/standby machine for 16mm. The speed was fixed at 25fps for telecine, and there was no facility for running it at silent speed (16fps) which is another downside for me, as I shoot a lot of film myself at that speed. So, all-in-all, it was a bit of a disaster. I did return the lens before jacking it, however.

As far as I am concerned, the statement 'don't try this at home' does not exist from an electrical standpoint, as I am an electrical engineer.
Cheers for now,

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2007, 02:22 AM:

David,
Being an electrical engineer must be almost the ideal profession regarding this hobby!

I blush when I think of some of the minor disasters I´ve created when dabbling with these machines... [Frown]

I know a little about electronics, but have no proper schooling at it. I think I´ve made enough costly mistakes, though, to realise what´s best left to the professionals. And I must also say I marvel at what the pros can do when they feel like it -they can truly ressurect the dead! One question for you -I´ve had an ELMO motor rewound for me in the past. I was amazed it could be done at all! Is it possible to have transformers rewound, or does that border on madness?

By the way -here´s a nice idea if you have a cine camera that can shoot at 20 fps (some Bolexes can) -shooting at 20 fps, footage will look okay both at 18 and 24 fps! [Smile]

As I´m sure you know, to deliberately create a slomo effect, one has to exaggerate a great deal: if standard speed is 24 fps, you need at least 33 fps to suggest slomo.
The Bauer P8 is particularly nice in this respect, it is electronically governed, so you can change between 18 and 24 with a handy little switch!

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 29, 2007, 04:59 AM:

Yes, Lars, it is possible to have a transformer re-wound, but it is very expensive, and unless the machine is really, really worth it, it can be a question of throwing good money after bad.

If it had been a pristine machine, then I might have given it due consideration, but there was so much against it, that I decided 'discretion was the better part of valour'. No. Quite frankly, I'm better off without it.

By-the-way, there has always been this discrepancy between 16fps and 18fps for silent speed. My 16mm cameras have a 16fps setting, amongst others, as does my standard 8 camera, but the super 8 cameras have an 18fps setting.

Likewise with various projectors, apart from those with variable speed. Some 16mm machines have 16fps, others have 18fps, whilst yet others only have sound speed at 24fps. Weird!

This topic has been covered in the Forum in the past at some length, but being a pedantic idiot, if the film was shot at a certain speed, then I like to project it at that speed!!

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2007, 06:49 AM:

Hello David!

Of course films should be projected at the speed they were shot, but apart from the likes of Stanley Kubrick (who I understand was infuriatingly pedantic [Wink]

) small variations in fps speed are hard to detect. Here´s an example: the other day I happened upon a professional 16mm camera, on which fps (due to an error in the camera) swung wildly and rapidly between about 18 and 30 fps continously while running. The footage would have been deemed unusable in most cases, as exposure continously flickered because of this (happily a lot of it could be used nonetheless). Kubrick would probably have ordered the camera operator shot. [Wink]

But -hold on to your hat- the movement of people, cars, etc in these shots appeared perfectly acceptable! And happily, because of this a lot of the footage could be used.

As for cine speeds, 24 fps I believe was set as standard in the late 1920s with the advent of sound. Silent movies were frequently shot with handcranked cameras, therefore fps would be "about" 16 - 18 fps all the time. I know the german UFA studios used cameras with electric motors by the late 1920s, and my guess would be they used 18 fps. 16 fps is really on the border of what you can get away with before you start to percieve the individual frames. Not that this is a problem really, if the image content is sufficiently arresting... [Wink]

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2007, 06:53 AM:

Hello again everyone!

Just a thought, really: I happen to be on sick leave today, and so I play around a little with this forum... But I notice other members are surprisingly active, too... ISN´T ANYONE WORKING OUT THERE?!? [Big Grin]

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 29, 2007, 07:15 AM:

Don't forget, Lars, that I for one, have my own business which I run from an office attached to the house; but quite often I am away at Clients' premises for several days, if not weeks at a time, so I take the opportunity to pursue my hobbies as and when I can.

I guess there are several retired members too, and also there are many members from around the world, so the time differences can make it seem like there is always someone to chat to on the Forum.

The info you give regarding the frame speeds is what I have gleaned form this topic earlier on, and that 16fps is indeed the point at which flicker just becomes imperceptible, so 18fps is comfortably just inside this.

By-the-way, get well soon! I trust it's not anything too bad, as you are clearly indulging in the hobby too - in fact I don't think you're sick at all - I reckon it's really an excuse to stay at home and chat on the Forum!! [Big Grin]

Best regards,

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2007, 07:35 AM:

Hello David!

I meant no offence to anyone, and I don´t think anyone was offended either [Wink]

but seriously, I´m having the worst cold in years (HONEST. REALLY.) so I´m quite happy it worked out I could stay at home today!

Perhaps we´re getting completely off topic and our posts will be moved? Hope not. I better mention the P6 tranny in the next post. [Wink]

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 29, 2007, 08:35 AM:

Lars,

I can't detect anything offensive in your posts. Whatever gave you that idea?? [Confused]

I think the patter has been completely in line with Forum protocol, though we all do take the mickey out of one another from time to time - but it's all in good fun - or "in the best possible taste", as the late Kenny Everett would say.

I don't think there's any need to change your tack. Your posts have been informative and interesting. I'm sure that Kev or Doug would have jumped on you if they thought anything was out of line, but I can't see it myself.

Cheers,

Posted by Tassos Laudas (Member # 588) on March 29, 2007, 09:14 PM:

David, having read all posts regarding this particular thread a question occured to me and i think you're the proper person to ask: How can someone tell that a projector's transformer is giving up the gost, are there any signs that could lead to this conclusion? What about strange noises at the beginning of plugging in, an unstable running of motor or a light output that varies during operation?...
As most of us own old projectors it would be very useful to be able to prognose this in order to look for parts in advance...

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2007, 11:48 PM:

Tassos,
I agree, it would be invaluable to be able to tell in advance if a transformer were on the brink of givin in! Certainly then you wouldn´t plan, for example, to screen a feature in a badly ventilated room...

Best Wishes
Lars

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 30, 2007, 01:30 AM:

There are many contributing factors to the failure of most electrical devices, including transformers.

If I may, I will answer this question in depth, on my return from a weekend work assignment away, as I am just about to depart.

Thank you for your patience.

Best regards,

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 30, 2007, 03:47 AM:

David!

I for one can´t wait to read the "in-depth-file" on the failure of transformers!
Dare I hope it will cover (what I suspect)that transformers behave a little bit like stereo amplifiers (your´e not supposed to crank up the volume without speakers attached) -they could suffer if you run them with some secondary wirings loaded, others not (meaning they´re all supposed to be loaded)?

May your weekend work assignment be a particularly cheerful and easy one! (Is it a power failure at a pub?) [Big Grin]

Best regards,
Lars

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