8mm Forum: Film cleaning Liquid

This is topic Film cleaning Liquid in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000377

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 19, 2006, 04:57 AM:

Hi Chaps,
I'm new to the forum, but used to collect 8mm and 16mm films way back in the 70's and 80's. Just reading the postings has fired up the love of film again. I still have my Derann S8 print of the final MovietoneNews.
I used to shoot 16mm Corporate films before it went video and remember how we all gathered around to have a sniff of a new print, fresh from Rank Labs.

I still have some old Super 8 family footage that has been stored for years and wanted to clean it before transferring to video. I used to use a liquid called 2.22, but don't know where to get it these days. Can anyone suggest a source?
I've also used Carbon Tet in the past, but don't have any left.

I have a Norisound 310 S8 projector which has variable projection speeds thanks to the internal potentiometers, so I can get rid of flicker totally.
I always lusted after an Elmo GS1200.
I've got a video projector, but somehow it's not the same.
Kind regards
Alan

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 19, 2006, 05:32 AM:

Hi Alan,

Welcome to the forum. Theres a great group of people on this forum with years of knowledge between them so you sure to get most questions answered.
Hopefully with your background you will also have some input.

Anyway enjoy being part of this comunity.

Film lube/Cleaners are still available. FilmGuard is a brilliant product which is sold by Brad Miller who runs this great site. Its available in the UK from Jack Roe Cinema Supplies.

Phil Sheard of Classic Home Cinema also sells Cresclean which does a reasonable job but most people get put off by the strong smell of whitw spirit. You can get details here. Classic Home Cinema.

FilmRenew is another brilliant product but not so easy to get in the UK. It can be obtained from the US but unfortunately in fairly large containers.
If someone knows of a UK distributor maybe thay could add the details here as it's the product I use and could now do with some more.

222 and most of those products from days of old are no longer produced. I also have my suspicions that some of my Eastman films which were treated with 222 have faded much quicker than films which werent. I know other people have had similar thoughts on this so it's important to use products which have been well formulated, tried and tested for many years such as Filmrenew and FilmGuard which are both used comercially in the cinema industry.

Hope that helps, Kev.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on August 19, 2006, 09:40 AM:

Alan,

Greetings! You're absolutely right about that new print smell. It was always a great feeling leaving the lab with a new print tucked under my arm after a high speed screening.
Kevin has already given you the lowdown on cleaners, so all I can say is welcome, and we're all looking forward to future postings.

Doug

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 19, 2006, 06:48 PM:

Many thanks for the information on film cleaning. I must take a good look at my old S8 Kodachrome to see how well it has fared as I used to treat it with 2.22 to get rid of scratches.

I always find it funny when people buy a video projector and winge about the fan noise. They obviously never has a Bell & Howell 16mm projector clacking away behind them.

Back in the late 70's and early 80's, I used to hire 16mm features and show them in the local town hall (600 seater) back in Scotland.
We filled it with 'Gregory's Girl' when the girl star (Dee Hepburn) attended- and also with 'Airplane'.
Those were the days - and it seems like it was yesterday.

Alan

Posted by Paul Spinks (Member # 573) on August 19, 2006, 11:02 PM:

And I thought that I was the only person who loved that wonderful new print smell. Sadly my film aquisitions have all been used prints for some time now so I haven't enjoyed this simple pleasure for a while. As for film cleaners, I used 2.22 and hated it, went on to Thermofilm and loved it ( I still have a little left as I procured a vast amount before its demise.)However I have heard that skin contact should be avoided when using these products as well as lots of ventilation as they can be carcinogous.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 20, 2006, 05:18 AM:

Alan,

I think you will ok with your treated Kodachromes. I used it on mine and they are still ok. It was the package movies which were made on the unstable Eastman SP and earlier varients so I dont think you need to worry.

I think that Filmrenew is the best and a very light application will hide all but the worst scratches and is great on fresh film to help it run steady through your projector.

I also find it good for lubricating the stripe which helps to give nicer recordings with less drop out etc.

Kev.

Posted by David Brooks (Member # 621) on August 22, 2006, 11:40 AM:

I know there is a problem in finding certain film cleaners that are routinely used and available in the USA. One that is popular is Filmrenew (Sold by Larry Urbanski - he has a website) and the other is ECCO products (in particular 1500). There are some home brew film cleaners that use naphta (lighter fluid) and some real pure camphor that can be applied. You might want to look around on various forums as this has been written about a good bit.

I have a number of friends in the UK and they have often spoken on the difficult in finding these supplies. Some suggestions. Check with a business that deals in photographic supplies (chemicals, papers, things like that) or at cinema distributor.

An alternative would be for a group of you to go together and pool resources (money) and import some of the products I mentioned above) and then split it out amount yourselves. That way, the hassel of importing the product could be a one time event (more or less) and shared costs. Just an idea.

Good luck.

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 22, 2006, 04:12 PM:

Sounds like a good idea to me.
I found the FilmRenew and the smallest quantity is a quart ( how quaint), but I'll bet that's quite heavy and shipping to/from the US to Blighty ain't cheap at the best of times.
Anyone coming over from the US on a trip with room in their case?
Oops - forget that!
Could be thought of as liquid explosives.

I've been looking at the other websites, especially Derann.
I'm impressed with the range of Features now available on Super 8.
In its heyday, there was never such a good range. Disney features were unheard of, just 1 reel clips.
The price is another matter, though. You'd have to be keen to pay £295 for a feature film, especially when you can buy the DVD for £16. The most I paid for a feature in the 80's was £179 for a 16mm feature. I guess it's a really niche market and well done to Derann for continuing to service it.
I used to visit their shop in Dudley whenever I was in the Birmingham area back in the 80's. Nice to see the name lives on.

Alan

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 22, 2006, 04:57 PM:

Alan, Tes your right about the shipping costs from the US it does make the whole thing very expensive and then of course there would be import duty and customs handling fee. [Eek!]

Maybe we need to check with Larry Urbanski to see if he has a UK agent.

Kev.

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 23, 2006, 02:42 PM:

I've sent an email to David Buck at Bucks Labs to see what they use to clean film and find out if he'll sell me some.
They used to produce some lovely quality Disney 1 reelers on S8 back in the 'good ole days'.
Alan

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 23, 2006, 03:33 PM:

Alan, I didnt realise that Buck Labs were still going. Wonder what they produce these days?

Kev.

Posted by Craig Hamilton (Member # 258) on August 23, 2006, 04:48 PM:

Kev

Here is a link to their website.

Bucks Labs

Craig

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 23, 2006, 05:09 PM:

Thanks Craig for the link. A real eye opener and they can process super 8 neg material [Smile]

Kev.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 23, 2006, 05:18 PM:

Speaking of buying a bulk supply of film cleaner and distributing it amongst forum members, didn't exactly that happen a couple of years ago when the notorious group known as the Lightwater Six and later the Ealing Mafia do exactly that?

I seem to remember a supply of Film Renew (?) being shipped in from the States and then a disreputable mob with moustaches and raincoats turning up at a pre-arranged time at a certain stall at the BFCC with empty 200ml bottles, these were quickly filled under the counter and returned in their brown paper bags to aformentioned raincoat pockets [Wink]

.

There's still time before the next BFCC to arrange another delivery and rendevous.

Anyone interested?

Mike [Cool]

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on August 23, 2006, 05:31 PM:

Last time I ordered from Larry (march 2006), a gallon of FR was 67 USD including economy mail.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 24, 2006, 01:12 AM:

Mike, That made me smile [Big Grin]

. I was tring to remember where that last small bottle of FR came from. That little ditty of yours bought it all back to me. [Big Grin]

My bottle has about a third left so maybe it is time to do the same thing again.

Kev.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 24, 2006, 06:35 AM:

Hey.... if y'all help me make it to the next BFCC I'll bring as much FilmRenew for everybody as I can possibly fit into a suitcase [Big Grin]

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 24, 2006, 03:32 PM:

Spoke to David Buck today. They don't use FilmRenew or FilmGuard. He recommended I clean my films with Isopropylalcohol.
I've found a Pharmacy who understand that I don't want to drink it and have ordered a couple of 500ml bottles @ £4.99 each for tomorrow.
I clambered all over the loft today to find my S8 home movies which I remember putting inside a large square biscuit tin, about 20 years ago. I found the tin, but to my horror the films were not inside it. They were separate inside the corrugated cardboard carton. Some were in plastic cans, one was in a Eumig cardboard box and some 200 foot reels were out of boxes.
Upon inspection, the ones in cans seem fine, the one in the Eumig box had a purple leader on it which seems to have dissolved and gone throughout the reel. The purple leader, as I recall, was meant to clean the projector gate. I only unwound the first few feet but the film is stuck together in places.
The reels without boxes look the same.
I'm going to submerge the reels in IPA for a couple of days to unstick them, then clean them between a velvet pad soaked in IPA.
Anyone got experience of doing this and any warnings against it?
I'm going to call a chap at Deluxe Labs (formerly Rank)at Denham tomorrow to see what advice or cleaner they'd offer.

On a positive note, I got down my projector, lubricated it and projected the last Movietone News ever made.
My other half said "What's that?"
Much to my embarassment, I struggled to say "It's the final Movietone" before bursting into tears.
All the memories came flooding back of showing films in a big hall in Scotland - and I'm not normally emotional.
I've just realised that I still love film after all these years.
Wierd how it gets you!
Alan

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 25, 2006, 10:15 AM:

Yes, I know. It's too embarassing to think you might have a member who bursts into tears when he shows a film.

I got some 35mm cans from a friend at Deluxe Labs today and a supply of IPA from a Pharmacy.
Will let you know how the cleaning goes.
I also bought a selection of Disney 200 footers, Tom & Jerry etc from Classic & Paul Foster.
The film bug is back!
Now if I could only find an Elmo GS1200 in a dusty attic, my day would be complete.

Alan

Posted by David Brooks (Member # 621) on August 25, 2006, 12:31 PM:

I checked with Larry Urbanski about what he might suggest on getting Filmrenew. I got the following reply.

He does not have a distributor in UK but does have one in Germany ( www.wittner-kinotechnik.de/ ). The website is in German so I could not clearly read exactly what they say. You might be able to contact them and see what they offer it for.

Comparsion, the 1 guart (yes we are still not metric) costs $20 and 1 gallon costs $39. He said he has shipped to UK 1 quart bottle via surface (slow) uninsured at $12.00. The shipping of one gallon would be $36 insured surface (again slow). If you were to get 1 gallon, the total would come in US dollars $75 (or about 38-40 pounds).

Alcohol is likely going to leave residue on the film. That is why is not normally used for cleaning film. Not to say that alcohol is not actively used in some cleaners, additional additives are recommended and I am not a chemist to suggest just what those are. Easier to buy products that are made for film cleaning.

Isopropyl alcohol can (and does) cause rubber to become soft and deform. If you use it, be sure it does not get on any rubber parts of your projector. Even some hard rubber parts in projectors can be affected. Isopropyl Alcohol is good for cleaning metal parts but be careful with plastics and rubber.

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 25, 2006, 05:01 PM:

Thanks David,
I'll be careful.
I cleaned a good 400 foot piece of 30 year old Kodachrome by winding it through a soft cotton pad soaked in IPA, then rewound it through a dry pad of the same material to remove any residue. The first wet cloth was filthy afterwards and the dry cloth still took off some dirt.
I let the film dry, then projected it. It looks good. The colours are there, no noticeable fading, the mag sound is fine.

I'm experimenting with 100 feet of the footage that was left out of a can, by immersing it fully in IPA in a sealed can.
As it was just out-take rubbish, I'm not worried about the film melting. At least I can see if it's safe to do this with the more valuable (memory wise) footage.
I'll let you know the outcome.
Kind regards
Alan

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 25, 2006, 06:37 PM:

Alan, A word of caution...IPA can make older Acetate film distort badly. The IPA removes any remaining moisture from the film and it will curl and twist as it is projected causing real problems with focus.
I have seen a couple of very bad cases of this effect caused by IPA.

I have seen this with an IPA based cleaner which is sold on the market. If you use it then dont over load the film with the stuff and dry the excess off as quick as possible. As for imersing film in it....I wouldnt do it [Frown]

Yes it does make rubber deform over a period of time so I would be careful especially where the rubber pinch roller is concerned.

Kev.

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on August 25, 2006, 07:25 PM:

I hear your wise words. I'm just experimenting with it on Kodachrome footage that's expendable at the moment.
I think I'll buy some FilmRenew from the German site.
They sell it in 500ml cans at around 15 euros each, but have a 30 euro minimum order. I'd have to get 2 cans.
Anyone fancy one and we can split the shipping charge?
Alan

Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on August 27, 2006, 05:10 PM:

So Isoproyl Alcohol deforms the rubber parts of our projectors..
I am now asking.. What do we all now use for the pinch roller etc?
The stuff that is used for the audio cassettes?.Andy.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on August 29, 2006, 12:57 AM:

Hi Andy,

I use Iso Pro fro cleaning the roller and other parts. I dip a qtip into some of the liquid and let it dry so its not saturated. The problem with putting too much of the stuff on film and then not letting it dry properly is that the liquid left between the film revolutions can derform the rubber were the film runs.

I think the stuff you buy for cleaning in say cassette recorder kits actually has some water with it so its not so harsh.

Kev.

Posted by David Brooks (Member # 621) on August 31, 2006, 07:01 PM:

Isopropyl alcohol, for some plastics, is OK. I have found any “soft” plastics can be effected (meaning softened). Many years ago, we used Isopropyl alcohol to remove some plastic material from cables (those molded connectors). So, the word to the wise is to test on something you don’t care about before using it. Isopropyl alcohol also dries things out as Kevin pointed out.

Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on September 23, 2006, 07:32 AM:

Thanks once again Kevin.My super8 mind is at peace now.Andy.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2