8mm Forum: How The West Was Won

This is topic How The West Was Won in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 19, 2008, 05:59 PM:

I just purchased the new 3 disc DVD of 'How The West Was Won'. This was filmed in the Cinerama 3-camera process and disc 3 is a fascinating 2 hour documentary on everything you could ever want to know about Cinerama. It includes that great opening by Lowell Thomas - " Now this is Cinerama!" followed by that rollercoaster ride . The film includes lots of shots from all the Cinerama films, all presented in the 'Smilebox' process which gives the illusion of watching a deeply curved screen. HTW3 itself is presented in a superwidescreen format of 2.9:1. It looks very impresssive indeed when projected on a 10ft screen. Warner Bros. have done an incredible restoration job, digitally removing the two join lines and 'jiggles' between the 3 picture panels. Worth buying just for the disc 3 feature alone.

I never saw Cinerama. The closest thing I have seen to it is the 16 projector 'Circlevision' system at Disney in Orlando, which is pretty amazing to see.

[ September 20, 2008, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Paul Adsett ]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 19, 2008, 06:11 PM:

PAUL!!

I just ordered this new edition and I am really looking forward to checking this out on either my TV or projection TV unit.

I have the laserdisc deluxe edition from the early 1990's and it has those dreadful "lines' in the image, a dreadful site.

Also, this is the first edition that utilized the full 6 channel
surround sound. It was stated at the time, (it might be in the documentary) that they would actually mix the surround mix on how full the audience was and WHERE they were sitting. Talk about showmanship!!!

Is there anyway you can post a still from this film?

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on September 19, 2008, 06:42 PM:

Osi,

Take a look here:

http://www.videoasylum.com/films/messages/6/63904.html

Claus.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 19, 2008, 08:37 PM:

Grrreat screenshot!!

I can hardly wait!!

Posted by Robert Wales (Member # 502) on September 19, 2008, 10:00 PM:

You can still see Cinerama if you know where to look. The Arclight ( which is part of the Cinerama Dome complex in Los Angeles) has had several screenings in the Dome over the years with a new print struck by MGM. I saw it there about 5 years ago and before that at the Cinerama Theatre in Seattle during the Seattle Film Festival. After the Dome screening I attended they opened up the booths and allowed the curious to come through and see the equipment and talk to the operators.

They just ran it a week or so ago on the day before the new DVD and Blu-Ray were released. The first 100 customers received a free copy of the Blu-Ray version with their admission. The Blu-Ray edition is not only one of the most beautiful discs ever released of a classic or contemporary title, it also includes a complete 'smilebox' version of the film on a 2nd disc designed to simulate the original Cinerama experience. ( The 'smilebox' concept is also used in the Cinerama documentary included on both the standard and Blu-Ray discs. ) Sounds kind of goofy but it's my preferred way to experience this film at home since it reminds me of the two theatrical experiences I had. I can't recommend enough seeing the film in true Cinerama if you can ever make the trip.

[ September 20, 2008, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Robert Wales ]

Posted by Barry Attwood (Member # 100) on September 20, 2008, 02:42 AM:

This comes out on R2 on the 29th of September, and it's even cheaper than the R1 counterpart (on Play.com anyway). I'm really looking forward to this one.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on September 20, 2008, 03:37 AM:

Personally I'd prefer to have the 'dreadful' join lines on the screen. That was all part of Cinerama. It would also then be possible to run three copies of the disc on three video projectors... well, you get the idea!

Posted by Robert Wales (Member # 502) on September 20, 2008, 09:47 AM:

You can still see some evidence of the join lines in quite a few scenes on the new DVD
although in the majority of places they have been almost completely eliminated. It's kind of a nice compromise to my mind - they pop up often enough to remind you that you are watching a Cinerama film but are not so intrusive that you are constantly taken out of the story.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 20, 2008, 09:59 AM:

John,
your not alone in your feelings about the join lines. I've read a number of posts concerning that very point. It's more about the nolstalgia and having seen it in the theater originally.You didn't have to be in your fifties or older to have seen this on it's original run, as this is still shown in theaters in a limited run.

The only other thing that I hope that they have corrected, no doubt digitally was not only the join lines but the overly "skewed perspective" (that's what I'll have to call it), at those join lines, which were always a little off.

That documentary is much anticipated. I have a question for Paul and any others that already own this film. Has HTWWW been edited for content?

I saw one person on a review section saying that nearly all of the Gregory Peck section of the film was completely edited out, except for him showing up in the "locket" near the end of the movie. maybe that reviewer was speaking of another version of the film?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 20, 2008, 12:49 PM:

Osi, the new DVD version is absolutely complete. It comes on two discs so video compression has been minimized.Greg Peck stars in a big part of the film. I can also confirm what Robert has said about the join lines. They are largely invisible, but sometimes become apparent particularly on sky scenes. Also there is sometimes some mismatch of color between the 3 panels. So you are pretty aware that this is a Cinerama print, but hats off to Warners for a wonderful job, making it look truly spectacular. The 3rd disc Cinerama documentary is great and includes an awful lot of technical and historical information on the process, and how it spawned Todd AO and CinemaScope.

The DVD is definately a 'must have' for all us cinema buffs. I got my copy at Wal-Mart for $14.95! What a deal for a 3-disc special edition.
Incidentally, did'nt someone demonstrate 8mm Cinerama a few years back?

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on September 20, 2008, 04:08 PM:

My Dad took me to Asbury Park's Paramount Theatre in 1963 to see this film in it's full Cineramic glory, I remember it was booming and beautiful and received my earliest education on westerns, its lore and the appreciation of the genre which lasts to this day - Shorty

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on September 21, 2008, 12:42 AM:

We got to see this about 4 years ago at Arclight. There is nothing to compare with this, though the effect can be lost on people who are visually unobservant. What I'm talking about is the super wide panoramic field of view -- the picture's not much wider than scope, but it sure functions differently. Also nothing looks sharper except Imax, as you might expect from the amount of picture surface area.

I was disappointed that the recent HWWW show was on a Sunday morning. We won't skip church for a movie. Had it been Saturday, we'd have been there.

Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on September 21, 2008, 07:19 AM:

Our local newspaper came out on tuesday with a write up on this release Warner said it would not do anymore of these restorations because it was to time consuming to justify the price.
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/28008789.html

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 21, 2008, 01:43 PM:

That's a load of hogwash, (not your post, but the studio's response), but it also shows that the shortsightedness of the Hollywood past isn't dead today.

Old Hollywood saw little use of thier films except for an occasional re-issue, and so they didn't take care of much of thier heritage.

Whoever the bozo was who issued that statement from the studio had absolutely no idea of how this will affect issue after re-issue. The more they restore the films, the more resale that they will have and therefore, more profitability.

I hope that idiot gets fired!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on September 21, 2008, 06:08 PM:

Hi Paul
I was reading an article from a Movie Maker magazine regarding 8mm Cinerama there were photos of the projectors and screen I will post them for you here but wont have time to copy them until next week.

Also regarding Cinerama if you can track down a VHS copy of "A Skeleton In Your Lap!" it includes a chap in the USA who converted his house to include the three 35mm projectors and runs Cinerama in his home. I think two of the machines are in his kitchen "fasinating stuff"

I have never seen Cinerama but there was a Cinerama cinema here years ago sadly long gone but I did go and watch the 70mm prints they ran, this was back in the 70s one night the manager showed me around and was surprised that this huge screen was made up of 1/2 inch wide strips from top to bottom also had a good chat to the projectionist that night. I think it was "Magnificent Men In their Flying Machines" in 70mm and was a good 5 or minutes or more late starting thanks to me yacking. The Cinerama cinema like many others were not to survive for much longer during those times "pity"

Graham.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 22, 2008, 08:11 PM:

I just got this film today! What a great improvement on the original. This is wider "letterbox" than the average widescreen DVD, but not by too much. The soundtrack sound really great in surround sound! They did thier best to re-create that surround sound effect of the original, (lost on all the other releases).

All those neat extras like the color "Lobby cards" are quite nice. they did a good job on this release!

Posted by David Park (Member # 123) on September 24, 2008, 10:09 AM:

How the West Was Won is regulary shown at the March Wide Screen Event at the Pictureville Bradford West Yorkshire in 3 lens Cinerama.
I knew this restoration was on its way but would personaly have preffered it not to be in Smile. Hope a choice might follow.

Posted by Robert Wales (Member # 502) on September 25, 2008, 09:29 PM:

David, the smilebox version is only available as an extra feature with the 2-disc blu-ray version, which ALSO includes the regular widescreen restoration on a separate disc.
The standard DVD only includes the restored widescreen version and no smilebox, so whatever you buy you'll get the non-smilebox version you want, plus the great documentary.

Posted by David Park (Member # 123) on September 26, 2008, 01:23 AM:

Good to hear, for me at least.
I had miss read the first post, sorry.
I and others had been asked our oppion on the format/Smile and the majority with me had said 'normal' preffered. I look forward to my purchase of the restored DVD.
I do believe many of the old 70mm films will be restored too, seems if the orginals not restored soon they will be lost for ever. I'm looking forward to seeing the restored 70mm 'The Bible in the beginning' next March on the Deep curved Cinerama screen. This is hoped for the WideScreen weekend at the Pictureville.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on September 26, 2008, 01:19 PM:

Just ordered my R2 copy; an unbelievable GBP 9.99 INCLUDING delivery!

martin

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on September 26, 2008, 05:02 PM:

Im sure ive seen copies on the net which are 'Two disc'. Im sure that the Two disc version would be the R2 and the Three disc R1.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on September 26, 2008, 11:29 PM:

Hi Paul
Following text is taken from "Movie Maker"

Cinerama type presentation at Widex-70

Take three Quartz cameras, hook them together and fit them to a baseboard. Take three inexpensive Magnon projectors and devise for them a synchronised power unit. Build yourself a massive curved screen-32ft wide and find yourself some place like the North Peckham Civic Centre where there's room to erect it.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 27, 2008, 08:33 AM:

Wow Graham, that's incredible! I wonder how well it worked. Well how about it Keith and John - Cinerama at the next BFCC? [Big Grin]

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on September 27, 2008, 10:45 AM:

The Region 2 I have just ordered is described as "3 Disc"
Martin

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on September 29, 2008, 03:06 PM:

The Region 2 release IS THREE discs. I received mine this morning and the quality and content is superb. a definate bargain for £9.99. [Big Grin]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 29, 2008, 03:16 PM:

I really think that this was one of the best restorations done on a classic film. Most restorations are mostly color and an occasional scratch or dirt on the print.

In this case, there was a LOT MORE that had to be done with this. I knew that this film would someday be restored, but I didn't think it would be anytime soon.

They really went out of they're way with the extras as well! Those re-prints of the books and such are nice, but I love those color stills, quite nice.

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on September 29, 2008, 03:26 PM:

Thanks Martin and Keith for that good news. I will order it soon.

HMV has a photo of the two disc but describes it as three discs. Im sure this is a mistake and both R1 and R2 is three disc. Yipeeee [Smile]

http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;-1;-1;-1&sku=809533

and Amazon.co.uk
http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-West-Was-Carroll-Baker/dp/B0018O51M4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1222719969&sr=8-1

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 29, 2008, 04:41 PM:

By the way, another great restoration but not perfect restoration, was "Othello", the Orson Welles version, which they had to do extensive work on, (just finding a 35MM of this was hard enough), then they completely redid the soundtrack with brand new orchestration and choir.

Considering what they had to work with, it was really good.

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on September 29, 2008, 05:07 PM:

Two other great "restoration" DVD's are "El Cid" and "Fall of the Roman Empire", both on Region One - 2 disc sets, with great extras content. Worth checking out if you like "Epic" movies.

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on October 01, 2008, 07:09 AM:

Well Im old enough to have seen HTWWW when it was released.It played at the Collesseum and the Casino Cinerama in London.I caight up with it in 1961.Shown in its original three projector format and utilising a seperate magnetic sound follower on spools matching the legnth of the film running to 14000ft.This equates to nearly two hours running time.The sight was staggering.The programme opened with a supporting documentary but in normal format-wasnt impressed just yet,then on came the traditional censor sertificate-still not impressed-but then the cinema went absoluteley pitch black,you could not make out a screen even,but within seconds the cinerama format hit the screen big time! And bloody hell,was it BIG!.Never seen the likes of it in my life (until IMAX years later) and was gobsmacked forever! A staggering projection experience from dedicated showmen.
Thats what stared a lifetime in cinema.Even after retirement nothing bettered that moment since.OK, Imax was and is good but that first time watching Cinerama was better than sex [Eek!]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 01, 2008, 09:01 AM:

Barry's phrase 'dedicated showmen' really summarizes Cinerama. If you watch the Cinerama Adventure film on disc 3 you realize that all these great men, Lowell Thomas, Mike Todd etc, were inspired and dedicated to put on a film show that no one who saw it would ever forget. And they certainly acheived that goal. Apparently a Cinerma film was more like a theatrical experience, you had to book your seat in advance, and you dressed up to go and see it. I can only imagine that moment when the curtains opened up and Lowell Thomas's magnificent voice shouted "Ladies and Gentlemen - this is Cinerama !"
Makes you realize that showmanship has completely disappeared from the cinema of today. Just a cold black multiplex box, with no curtains or decor, and uncontrolled blasting sound.
Thats why home cinema is so great - you can recreate the showmanship of the past in your own home.

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on October 01, 2008, 09:19 AM:

Barry,

"that first time watching Cinerama was better than sex"

Did you have a cigarette after the performance? [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 01, 2008, 09:25 AM:

"cold black multiplex box"

Very much so: The theater a mile or so down the road from us has painted concrete floors under the seats, probably so they can hose out the accumulations here and there.

Others aren't quite so utilitarian but none have any real decor at all. Entering the auditoriums is a little like going into a cave: the walls are draped in black and the lighting is low.

The on screen content before the Coming Attractions are a bunch of spotty slides with ads for real estate agencies and plumbers plus movie trivia quizzes. Since they repeat these about 80 times before they roll film getting them right becomes a snap! Those with a keen memory will have the answers for next time: the slides are rarely changed from week to week. The time before the show is supposed to be anticipation, but it's become waiting instead.

When the Trailers roll they tend to have an audio level high enough to damage your internal organs, and are quite often wrong for the audience and the feature yet to come. The first time we took our son (then three years old) out to the movies it was to see "The Heffalump Movie". So there we are in this little sea of pre-schoolers waiting to see Pooh and Piglet when on comes the trailer for "Violent Explosions IV" (or whatever...). Within two minutes half the theater was crying!

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 01, 2008, 01:27 PM:

Just watched half the documentary disc; pleased to see that our very own Kevin Brownlow (who can remember the name of his best known ACW "Ten Best" film?)has a five second clip.

Martin

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 01, 2008, 01:29 PM:

Just watched half the documentary disc; pleased to see that our very own Kevin Brownlow (who can remember the name of his best known ACW "Ten Best" film?)has a five second clip.

And Keith, in our house the sex was so good the neighbours had a cigarette!

Martin

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on October 01, 2008, 01:41 PM:

Martin, was that the neighbours on both sides? If so, it was obviously "Widescreen and Stereophonic" [Eek!]

As long as it wasn't Dolby 5.1 [Eek!]

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 02, 2008, 03:31 AM:

Keith,
I'm not sure; I don't think I was there at the time!

Martin

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on October 02, 2008, 03:46 AM:

Hi Martin. So it could have been Dolby 5.0 ?? [Cool]

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on October 23, 2008, 06:02 PM:

I just watched the Blu-ray of 'How the West was Won'.
I preferred the Smilebox version as it gives some impression of what Cinerama was like. When you grow up in the 1960's in a small town in Scotland, you have no chance of seeing anything technically innovative.
It's the first time I've actually watched the whole film as I've tried watching it on TV but have always given up thanks to the pan and scan effort, overlapping images and mismatched colour of the panels.
The Bluray was a joy to watch as most of the problems have been ironed out - and the sound is excellent too. Debbie Reynolds had a lovely singing voice.
I only have a 7 foot screen, but it was a real pleasure.
Alan

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 23, 2008, 10:40 PM:

Hi Alan,
I have heard different comments on the 'SmileBox' effect, some people really like it, others prefer the flat version. I do not have a Blu-Ray player yet, so I am stuck with the standard DVD which only comes in the 2.81 flat version. But I think you have the right perspective on this, and I am sure that like you, I would prefer the Smilebox version to simulate the Cinerama effect. I really like the SmileBox simulations on the documentary on Disc 3. On my 10ft screen you can almost feel that rollercoaster! [Big Grin]

Incidentally, what a great documentary 'Cinerama Adventure ' is. I have watched it 3 times already. What great showmen Lowell Thomas, Mike Todd, Hazard Reeves, et al were.

Posted by Alan Paterson (Member # 661) on October 24, 2008, 12:08 PM:

I would have loved to have been a Cinerama cameraman. Filming aerial shots from the front bubble of that aircraft must have been brilliant. I used to do it using a skymount on helicopters, with the side door removed - but I only had a 16mm Arriflex. Even so, when you went over a cliff you felt you were going to fall out.

They left some dirt marks on the aircraft windshield in the opening shot of 'How the West was Won'. I'll bet the cameraman was really hacked off when he saw them on the print. He probably thought he'd got away with it as the camera was non-reflex. Bit of a shame though, on the very first shot of the movie.

I think 'Seven Brides for Seven Brothers' was the only other feature to be shot in true Cinerama.

Alan

Posted by David Park (Member # 123) on October 24, 2008, 12:54 PM:

No the second and last MGM Cinerama in 3 lens was Wonderfull World of the Brothers Grimm.
Which I never saw and want to. There is a surviving copy and it is in Australia, I think at a Cinerama in a house. The man who has it so far as not loaned to Picturville, I'm hoping one day he will.
Should anyone know of another copy I will pass the information to the people at the Media Museum to see if they can obtain it for a screening.

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