8mm Forum: Deadly Nitrate Film

This is topic Deadly Nitrate Film in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on March 04, 2009, 02:19 AM:

If you ever wondered how lethal this stuff is check out a short movie on Google/Video I cant get the web-site up here for you to watch but the name is "Nicht loschbar-Nitrofilm-Feuerwehr Laxenburg-ca.1965" its an Austrian film. If someone can track the site and post it for those who want to watch it that would be great.

The video shows that nothing can stop it, [Eek!]

the Fire Department tried everything foam, sand, different fire extinguishers the lot nothing works it even burns under water, you can forget using a fire extinguisher it wont do any good and by the time you have reached for the handle its all over, you dont have a chance this stuff can kill real quick, check out the video.

Graham.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on March 04, 2009, 03:28 AM:

Try this:

Nitrofilm

Kev.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on March 04, 2009, 07:43 AM:

Well, at least "nitrate" is better than a "dayrate." [Big Grin]

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on March 04, 2009, 08:56 AM:

That was a very cool video! When I used to work at a Audio/Video Post Production House we would sometimes get Nitrate films that we would have to transfer the soundtracks onto a Digital Format for preservation. The laws were very strict about handling Nitrate film. We were only allowed to have one reel out at a time. So when one reel was done we would put it into a fireproof vault and pull out another reel. One day we decided to light a little 6 inch strip outside to see how "combustible" the film was. It went up just like flash paper.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on March 04, 2009, 10:07 AM:

The second sequence with the large barrel of fluid reminded me of Who Framed Roger Rabbit.....can we say THE DIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on March 04, 2009, 02:27 PM:

It's amazing how one can forget about the obvious sometimes:

On Ebay, I almost got my hands on a 35mm two-reel short silent western from 1925, because the man who starred in it (Curly Witzel) had only made 3-4 films, so I thought it could make a nice little obscure film to have. I had planned to make blow-ups of some of the frames, since I have no 35mm projection capacity.

I say "almost" because after I won the bid, reality set in:
I suddenly realized that this, of course, had to be NITRATE stock, something I had completely blocked from my mind in the bidding on this film.
Amidst thoughts of my apartment going up in flames, I wrote the seller, explaining this, and asking to retract the bid, and he agreed.

He had had the film in his attic for something like 20 years in 100 or so degree heat in the summers [Eek!]

and said it looked fine as far as he could examine the reels, no decay or anything.

I got hold of the Library of Congress and they seemed quite interested, so I put them in touch with the seller. I trust the film got a good home. I mean, my home would have been a good home for it too, but I don't have fireproof compartments here [Big Grin]

Claus.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 04, 2009, 02:36 PM:

I'm sure one of those films was "Towering Inferno"!!!...Mark.

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on March 04, 2009, 04:43 PM:

It could have been "Some Like It Hot" [Smile]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 04, 2009, 04:59 PM:

"Blazing Saddles"!

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 696) on March 04, 2009, 05:41 PM:

When I was a trainee projectionist, way back in 1959, one of my jobs was to burn all the offcuts that used to accumulate from splice making, film repairing etc, of Nitrate film.
This was done in the back yard of the cinema in a metal container by the simple method of throwing a lighted match on to the film, and standing well back.
The flames were accompanied by a yellowish, sulphorish smelling smoke.

In the UK the projection of Nitrate release prints was all phased out by the middle of the 1960s, but I do remember showing a Polish film, Man of Marble, at the London Film Festival in 1978, and this was a Nitrate copy.

Nitrate film decomposing
www.cinephoto.co.uk/misc_film_14.htm

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on March 05, 2009, 12:30 AM:

I actually work with nitrate every day at a film archive, and it is really not that scary, but it does require common sense. The funniest/scariest thing I have come across recently was a gentleman on another forum posted a question about removing the smell of burnt nitrate, which of course prompted questions. He confessed that he set 2 cans on nitrate on his stove while making himself some food and the pilot light in the burners caught the film ablaze....

Oh and how deadly can it be, cuz remember that its original use was in dental fillings...... [Eek!]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on March 05, 2009, 05:02 AM:

When one watches "Cinema Paradiso" you can see how accurately the fire in the projection room is protrayed in the movie after watching the Austrian fire department video.

The Glen Cinema Disaster makes interesting reading which happened on 31st December 1929 when the young 15yr assistant operator accidentally placed a reel of film in its tin box on a 6volt accumulator and caused a short circit across the terminals, he soon noticed smoke coming from the film can, fearful of a fire he tried to carry it to an exit door, however the door was either locked or jammed, he set it down and ran to inform the projectionist who told him to fetch the manager upon his return the smouldering can was giving of dense fumes. The manager opened the door and kicked the film outside by this time the smoke had seeped into the main hall which was packed and overcrowded, the smoke caused panic and a rush towards the rear exits. The official estimate was 700 children, 71 were killed and many were injured not by fire but by the crush at the exits and is regarded as the worst cinema disaster in British history.

After the disaster experiments were witnessed at the London Fire Brigade HQ. when a can of nitrate film was placed across an accumulator and was ignited in four seconds, emitting extremely dense fumes containing a high percentage of carbon monoxide and other poisonous and inflammable gasses.

The tragedy led to the introduction of stricter safety regulations for cinemas throughout Britain.

Graham.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 1183) on March 06, 2009, 11:00 AM:

The risk from nitrate film is not nearly as great as people these days seem to think. In the USA, nitrate was phased out in 1950, and all but gone by 1951. Unless it is decomposing, it presents no particular risk just sitting around. You don't want to ignite it however, as it produces it's own oxygen while it burns, making it very hard if not impossible to extinguish. This means that you only want run it on projectors that were designed for nitrate and have their fire containment intact, and you certainly don't want to have any open flame (cigarette or otherwise) around it.

Having burned a lot of nitrate over the years (nothing rare or lost), I can tell you that if anything, the nitrate fire in Cinema Paradiso is understated. My introduction to burning nitrate is as follows. Years ago, I was at a party with some other film collectors, and a mutual friend brought a decomposing 2000 foot reel of nitrate up to burn. We had all heard how dangerous nitrate was, but none of us had ever seen it burn. We put the reel horizontally on a cinder block out in the back yard, unraveled about 3 feet and lit it. The flame burned up the unraveled section just like a fuse. When it got to the main body of the reel, it sat there burning with a small flame for about 20 to 30 seconds. Just as we were all saying that this was not very spectacular, a whooshing sound was heard, a ball of flame formed around the reel, and a rocket jet flame shot upward higher than the roof line of the house. It burned this way for a few minutes, and when it was done, the steel house reel had partial melted. I've had a healthy respect for nitrate ever since.

However to be fair, we all drive around in vehicles that contain a tank of gasoline, which is even more volatile than nitrate. Gasoline, like nitrate film, is safe if stored and used properly.

When 35mm Safety Film was introduced in the USA, Kodak put an ultraviolet dye into all their safety stocks which under a black light would glow purple. Kodak did this so that during the transition, you could wind the film on to a core, hold a black light to the side, and instantly see if there were any nitrate sections in the reel (the nitrate would not glow purple). This is still useful to collectors.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 06, 2009, 01:21 PM:

Amazing, the nitrate is so strong, it continually burns while under water - Maybe if it is left there about an hour, it will finally dissipate - I suppose that when film (celluloid) was first invented (created), nitrate was the only stock to use. No acetate back about 1889? Other chemical compositions might have proved more lethal, perhaps not - I want to hear more, and yes I have Slide's good book (Nitrate Won't Wait) - Shorty

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 1183) on March 06, 2009, 02:37 PM:

Joe, you seem to be confused. Acetate/Celluloid is the base, nitrate is the emulsion formulation. Acetate is a form of plastic, which was not invented until the 1920's, and did not come into wide use until the 1940's. Celluloid was/is a wood byproduct that was used for the base stock prior to acetate being widely available. Many, if not most nitrate prints from the 1940's on were printed on acetate backing, although it was a different formulation (duacetate) than the later safety prints (triacetate). Celluloid is no more flammable than old newspapers, it was the nitrate in the emulsion that dangerous.

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 696) on March 06, 2009, 05:41 PM:

Mitchell says that it was the nitrate in the emulsion that dangerous

I think that he is getting mixed up with Silver Nitrate emulsion, and Cellulose Nitrate Film base.
It is not the emulsion that is dangerous, but the composition of the film base.

Silver Nitrate is the main composition of film emulsion for both Nitrate and Safety film. It is literally made from small grains of silver, and is still in use today on all types of film cameras, and projection films.

Cellulose Nitrate film, normally just called Nitrate film, has a base that is a completely different type of animal.
It is made from Nitrocellulose, also called Cellulose Nitrate, and is a highly flammable compound formed by nitrating cellulose through exposure to nitric acid. It is also also known as guncotton.

In the Kodak book 'Causes of Film Damage' they state that, and I quote, 'motion picture film support was of cellulose nitrate type of hazardous nature and highly inflammable'.

This statement I can endorse having seen a 2000 ft reel of nitrate literally explode during burning.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on March 18, 2009, 06:24 PM:

I have about 100ft of what I believe to be nitrate. It's silent 35mm and brown and brittle. One small rolled up bit IS decomposing, sticky and picture disintegrating. On noticing this it has all been re-located to a plastic bag in the yard. So it has to go. I don't think it is of any historical significance, part of a silent Western and there is one short bit of a carnival parade. In the UK should it just go in the rubbish bin for landfill? It is only about 100ft. Thanks.

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 696) on March 18, 2009, 06:50 PM:

Steven.

I do not think that you should throw this film in the rubbish bin. You never know what enviromental rules and regulations you might be breaking.
If it is decomposing, as you say, the sooner you get rid of it the better.
Contact your local Council and ask their advice about disposing of it.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on March 20, 2009, 07:42 PM:

Sounds like a perfect candidate for a metal barrel, a match, and a video camera running! [Wink]

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 22, 2009, 07:56 AM:

Twenty years ago I worked at a film lab here in Stockholm, and the oldtimers told me of a controlled nitrate fire the local fire department had set up to get rid of a large volume of dangerous old films. They filled an abandoned brick building in the countryside with this stuff and parked the fire engines in all four directions at reasonable distance from the building, before setting fire to the stuff. All went well, but I was told they pretty quickly had to back up the vehicles, because all things plastic on them (rearview mirrors etc) immediately started to melt! [Eek!]

The swedish film institute has rephotographed onto safety stock enormous amounts of old films that were deemed historically valuable, and I suppose once that work is completed, the nitrate stuff is destroyed.

Cheers
Lars

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on March 27, 2009, 04:41 PM:

A friend of mine once had a reel of decomposing nitrate (35) that he wanted to get rid of -- he took it to the fire department, and the response he got was "what the heck is that? just throw it out"... :-)

He ended up cutting it into pieces and feeding it into his barbecue grill... Must have made for tasty hamburgers...

BTW for anyone who is not aware - for all intents and purposes there is no 16mm or 8mm nitrate film (with the possible exception of stuff from Eastern Europe where they might have cut 35mm stock)

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 27, 2009, 04:52 PM:

Steven,
that´s interesting -why was nitrate never used for 8 and 16? [Roll Eyes]

Cheers
Lars

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on March 27, 2009, 05:10 PM:

8mm and 16mm were both originally designed for home use which meant that safer film stock was needed.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on April 08, 2009, 01:21 PM:

http://www.almanacnews.com/news/show_story.php?id=3710

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on April 09, 2009, 01:56 AM:

Since the nitrate film is considered a hazardous material you really should not being disposing of it casually, and keeping it inside a plastic bag will only contribute to the decomp because if the film is sticky that means it is off-gassing, and if the bag is sealed the gases have no where to go - obviously the best way to deal with it is to get it to a film archive as they have procedures to properly dispose of the film without harm to people or place.

We were just reminded of the dangers of nitrate this past weekend in california when one of the biggest supporters of film preservation, and the beauties of nitrate film had a nitrate fire in his Stanford Theatre in Palo Alto, because a print got jammed in the gate long enough for the lamp to ignite it and cause abut $10,000 in damage to the booth. Thankfully this was a theatre that was properly designed to contain such a fire so no one was hurt, but it is a reminder that the precautions that need to be taken to safely project nitrate are there for a reason.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on April 09, 2009, 02:55 AM:

Dino,

I posted the link to this story in my last post, there.

-Mike

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on April 09, 2009, 09:16 AM:

In the end I took it to the local recycling centre ( what they used to call 'the dump' ) and they put it in with 'medical waste' so it will go in the incinerator... I presume. I don't really think they knew what it was, either.

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