8mm Forum: 35mm is the best!!!

This is topic 35mm is the best!!! in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on June 22, 2009, 04:29 AM:

I find many people moving over to other gauges for one reason or another. I find generally when people move over to another film gauge. You either need to finance the move being it 16mm or 35mm.

Thou the pay off in moving to a bigger film gauge format is better picture quality overall. With 35mm being the ultimate quality and experience you will find compared with 16mm or even these days Super8.

Has anyone else moved onto another film format for one reason or another and had to forsake and finance the move with the collection they once had in any film gauge!?!

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 22, 2009, 05:00 AM:

Of course 35mm is the best and 70mm even better but most of us cant house those larger machines [Frown]

I have been slowly selling a lot of my Super 8 titles in favour of 16mm since getting my 16-CL Xenon but there are some titles on Super 8 I wont sell as they are getting impossible to find on any of the Guages.

If I do find a print of a certain title on 16mm then I will let the print go from my Super 8 colection. This is probably what most collectors would do.

Kev.

Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on June 22, 2009, 05:33 AM:

Kev.

Yes unfortunately 35mm does take up a lot of room and that’s not just the machine the films as well and the reels.

You are right some titles on Super 8 either being classics that are extremely hard to find in any gauge let alone in pristine print quality. Something to note that it’s even harder to find a pristine print in 16mm unless it was only used for TV or has come from a private collector. This of course also applies to 35mm, which with hindsight is sometimes harder to find.

The other factor to take into consideration is film stock and the rarity of the title. With Technicolor prints to find a print that is in excellent as new condition is very rare these days considering they stop printing Technicolor from 1974 onwards.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 22, 2009, 06:29 AM:

The important thing for me with 35mm is that the era which I am most interested in collecting - from the silent era to the 1940's - is very poorly represented in this guage, in terms of availability to collectors.

The titles I want are most available in 16mm.

For those interested in the modern era, and who also have the space, 35mm is the best there is, without a doubt.

-Mike

ps: perhaps this thread should be moved to the General Yak section????

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on June 22, 2009, 06:35 AM:

I'm already 'secretly' collecting 35 mm. trailers, excerpts and movies. But the main problems are the ones Kevin and Robert have already mentioned: impossiblity to house those big machines. And in need of so much room to stack films and reels.

It's still a dream. But it could happen, one day. And I'm happy enough just thinking it could. In the meanwhile I do my best to be ready for the event. [Big Grin]

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 22, 2009, 07:01 AM:

I'm adding 35mm to my collection (not moving to 35mm), mainly for short features and new and recent releases that will never find in other formats.

35mm projectors are not so big if you're able to modify them. Some people I know have a 35mm modified projectors (see for example one here: http://www.cinematech.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4868 ) and I'm doing the same thing with mine.

Lamp, of course, is not xenon, but even a 24V 250W lamp with a proper mirror does a good job in a little projection room.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on June 22, 2009, 07:05 AM:

My compliments, Fabrizio. This is really interesting.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on June 22, 2009, 07:16 AM:

Yes I too think thats very interesting. It certainly makes 35mm portable. Maybe that guy should offer that conversion as a service.
Doesnt get over the storgae room needed for 35mm film [Frown]

Kev.

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 22, 2009, 07:42 AM:

You're right Kev but as far as you limit to short film you may not experience storage problems.

EDIT:
Furthermore there are some portable 35mm machines (see www.cinemec.it, for example) even with 2500 W xenon bulbs.
I used the one with 1600W xenon bulb and it's really amazing! Sharp picture, excellent sound, excellent light and really quiet.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 22, 2009, 09:19 AM:

Though I would be a nut to say that 35MM is not better, its more of a price issue for me.

I've been stunned at some of the films that I have found on optical sound super 8. Though my search for those prints can only go as far back as 1967 and up to 1990, there are some that, to this day, I haven't seen a print of on 16MM, (for instance, the low budget cutie, "Ruckus" starring Dirk Benedict of Battlestar Galactica), or 35MM, but low and behold, there it is on optical sound super 8, and have I mentioned the image quality on optical sound super 8?

Nah, I couldn't have! [Big Grin]

But 35MM is truly the "Gold Standard" only surpassed by 70MM, and even trailers in 70MM are as rare as hens teeth, (and dem is pretty rare, dem is!)

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 22, 2009, 01:10 PM:

Is anyone else having trouble opening that Cinemec link in Fabrizio's post or is it my PC?

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on June 22, 2009, 01:17 PM:

Michael, have you ever seen a "," in an URL? [Wink]

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 22, 2009, 01:26 PM:

Sorry guys, I was in a hurry when i posted the link and I didn't notice the ","

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 22, 2009, 01:40 PM:

pity you didn't remove it when you edited!
Martin

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 22, 2009, 02:21 PM:

Here are the links to the 35mm portable projectors pages:

http://www.cinemec.it/LH400.pdf
http://www.cinemec.it/PX1600.pdf
http://www.cinemec.it/LX2500ST.pdf

They are the correct ones [Wink]

Posted by David Erskine (Member # 1244) on June 22, 2009, 02:45 PM:

Fabrizio - fascinating! What sort of (new) prices are they? I've got a GB'N' fitted with 24v 250w lamp and an Eiki sound head - and it cost me £400 (including 10 reels of film!)
Cheers, David E

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 22, 2009, 03:02 PM:

David, a brand new PX1600 is more or less 16.000 Euro complete of light source but without lens, if I remember right...

In the italian market, used portable machines go around 2.500/3.500 euro, depending on the type, but if you're able to modify a fixed one into a portable one you may spend less than 1000 euro including all the material and accessory work.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on June 22, 2009, 03:13 PM:

Fabrizio, would you be in a position to turn a 'fixed' into a 'portable' one 'for sale'? Let me know. I could be really interested.

In case contact me at
gloncri (at) hotmail (dot) it

Grazie.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on June 22, 2009, 04:46 PM:

What does a GBN look like David ???

Best Mark.

Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on June 23, 2009, 04:01 AM:

A good 35mm portable is this machine

Here is one with a long play system attached

Chinese made 35mm portable projectors made by the SHANGHI AUGUST 1st PRECISON MACHINE CO.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on June 23, 2009, 04:58 AM:

Patrick, this is absolutely great! My compliments!

Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on June 23, 2009, 07:46 AM:

Hi Patrick,

Hope all is well with your new set up, can you tell me who supplied you with your long playing machine and how much did it cost you!?!

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on June 23, 2009, 07:57 AM:

Honestly, if you don't mind digging for a print, 35mm is not that bad. the cans stack quite nicely, and they look the shiz.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 23, 2009, 08:19 AM:

Mark,
try http://www.curzon.org.uk/collection/35GBNportable.html

Explore the site everybody!. I suspect Maurice knows this one already.
Martin

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on June 23, 2009, 12:58 PM:

For those who are not familiar with 35 mm projection, I want to clarify a few things.

When we say "Portable", it is wiser to say "Transportable" as these machines are most of the time heavier than a dead donkey. The Cinemec PX1600 weighs 29kg (64 pounds), my Kinoton FP23 weighs 49kg (108 pounds). Once set up, you don't move them around much. Or you put them on wheels.

They are not all "self-contained" (ie plug and play). The Cinemec models are, some older portable machines from Proyecson are, the Buysse-Botazzi 35BB is, the most excellent Portacine from Cinemeccanina is. I think there's also one model from Microcine. What do I mean by "self contained"? They feature a small rectifier - providing they use xenon light (which is not always the case) - a sound amplifier and (sometimes) a built-in speaker. Basically, they are/look like overgrown 16mm machines.

Others will need a separate sound system. You can start with a good old home theatre amp but you soon realize this isn't enough. So you get yourself a Dolby processor, 6 channels of amplification and the adequate speakers. Providing your machine is equipped with a stereo cell (which is not always the case).

If you want to be able to project properly recent trailers and films, your sound head will need to be fitted with a red LED/laser system. The new "cyan track" - designed basically to eliminate silver in the printing of optical track - will not play really well with old exciter lamp systems.

After that, you can also go digital (I'm equipped with DTS sound - that requires a special decoder on the projector and a special CD unit - the result is mind blowing)

To work with Xenon light, some projectors like the "portable" Spectra (Chinese machines that can be purchased new - similar to the one pictured above - our friend Robert just bought two) need a separate rectifier/ballast for continuous power.

Then there's the lens (or lenses) as there's no such thing as a simple zoom lens. Only primers in 2.5mm increments. The best ones are from ISCO or Schneider (they are now the same company). For long-throw, you can sometimes attach an adaptor device (the one I have is called a Magnacom) that will either enlarge or reduce slightly the size of your projected image. There are formulas and softwares to help you with the choice of lenses once you know your screen size and projection distance.

For example, I have a 12ft screen for my set-up at 20ft throw. It is a screen meant for video projection, therefore 1.78:1.
I can fill it in "flat" (1.85:1) with a 35mm lens, use a 50mm optic for 1.66:1 and 1.37:1 and create a letterboxed image for cinemascope with a 70mm lens and anamorphic attachment.

Then there's is the film transport... (Robert, I still have spares to build a Cinemeccanica tower...) Most portable machines are able to play 6000ft spools. The Spectra models need to be fitted with special/longer arms. My Kinoton was originally customized with a 6000ft Microcine film transport. I have removed and replaced it with an IDEF tower for up to 15000ft of film (that's more than 3 hours).

There you have it. I think I covered everything. I also want to add that I still run a lot of super 8 and 16 [Big Grin]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 23, 2009, 02:45 PM:

Great Photo Patrick, I was surprised at just how small the main body of that projector is!

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on June 23, 2009, 08:42 PM:

I collect 35mm and 70mm film, but still have a couple of titles in Super 8mm (mostly for the novelty). I never got into 16mm. I just couldn't stomach the bad mono sound.

35mm need not take up a lot of storage room. The trick is simple...6000 foot reels. If you store your prints on 2000 foot (normal "shipping") reels, you will require a warehouse to store a few dozen prints. If you store your prints fully built up on 12000+ foot reels (sometimes called "tower" reels), you will also need a warehouse to store your prints, although you can store a few more that way as opposed to 2000 footers.

When you store on 6000 foot reels (roughly one hour playing time each), you hit that happy spot where you can cram the most amount of prints into one room. For example, I have a room that is 12x16 and I can store over 400 35mm prints in there...fully built up, ready to run on my automated changeover system. This way if the movie is roughly 2 hours or shorter, I can thread up both projectors and walk out of the booth to enjoy the entire movie uninterrupted. If the movie is long, such as 2.5 or 3 hours, somewhere in the middle hour I only need to wander into the booth for a couple of minutes to load up that third reel. Other 35mm collector friends of mine only have one projector, so they just do a short intermission at the halfway point.

Its all in HOW you organize your storage once you move into the world of 35mm.

As far as portability, I once setup a full sized Century SA machine for a friend of mine that ran 6000 foot reels and only took up 2x6 feet of floor space. It was built onto a "piano dolly" type of base so the entire system could be rolled out of the storage closet into position and with a couple of quick connections he was on screen. [Cool]

Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on June 23, 2009, 11:45 PM:

Hi Robert
the pics of the Spectra's are not actualy mine but came from the distributor, the long play tower is made by www.cinematografiasax.com in Spain.

It is the Chinese Spectra minus it's spool boxes mounted on this long play system which uses it's own motor to take up the film on the 12000ft reels as the projector's motor would be powerful enough to drive the projector head as well as the take up.
[Big Grin]

Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on June 27, 2009, 12:26 AM:

Here is another picture of a pair of the Chinese machines in use.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 1183) on June 28, 2009, 10:47 AM:

There are also many 35mm portables that are no longer manufactured, and can be bought used relatively cheaply. Below is a picture of one of my Marin MP30 table top projectors. They are all self contained, complete with internal sound amps and speaker, a 1/4" plug for an external speaker. Uses standard size lenses that are available used.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on June 28, 2009, 01:11 PM:

Wow, how often do they pop up Mitchell? Even on a dolly my Simplex is killing me.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 28, 2009, 01:13 PM:

Are they noisy when running, Mitchell?

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 28, 2009, 04:21 PM:

The Marin was sold in Italy with the brand Fumeo on it, but it's quite rare to find.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on June 29, 2009, 02:07 AM:

What's the reel capacity on that? About 4000'?

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on June 29, 2009, 05:54 AM:

6000' for the version sold by FUMEO.

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