This is topic The Death of Vinyl (or...all my hobbies have gone to digital) in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.


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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 10, 2009, 01:53 AM:
 
Hi all,

I have three main hobbies.

Of course the first one is FILM.... and as you have known, it has gone to digital since long time ago... There is no question about it.

My no. 2 hobby is a train collection. This has also gone to digital, where Locos can now be played on the same track without need to worry they bump each other. It because the digital control sends a different time code to each Loco. In fact, with a Digital controller, on the same track one Loco can go forward and the other go backward!! Many Train collectors now prefer to use digital Loco and controller for the sake of this simplicity.

My last hobby is the vinyl collection. This has also gone to digital since long time ago. There are several communities still playing vinyls but compared to digital format, they are not comparable.

But what made me so optimistic yesterday not because of the existence of that small community of vinyl lovers, but because DJ communities were the other side of people who kept the vinyl industry growing and preserved.

Yesterday, I was thinking that music could go to digital, but all DJs, Night Clubs, Radios would still use vinyls because vinyls could not be replaced by CD due the use of scratches and other tricks done by DJs.

Indeed, there were CDJ marketed to compete DJ Turntable but the quality of scratches were different because (the most important issue), when using CD, the DJs couldn't directly see the track they were going to play, so it's hard for them to do scratching like what they did with vinyl.

(BTW, fyi I've been DJing as well at my bedroom, that's why I knew that stuff above)

So, I felt save about vinyls industries that they would be in this universe for long time.

But that was yesterday,.... until someone finally invented this...

(Serato Scratch Live)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSVqh6ryLho

This gear replaces the actual vinyl by playing all digital music on laptop by using the benefit of Turntable it self. So basically, the vinyls are not used except the turntable. With this set up the DJ can see the track (which actually only an imaginary track because everything is on laptop). So what was the problem with CDJ is now solved.

There ois also now what the so called "Vinyl Record Timecode":

http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-Rane-Serato-Scratch-Live-Vinyl-Record-Timecode_W0QQite mZ380103687921

So, I can say that this will be "The Death of Vinyl industry" as a whole (OK there will be still a limited numbers of vinyl, like what we have in this 8mm world, but no longer as a mass production).

Look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myVqRhy5NNA

The same concern is also mentioned by DJs there.....

It is so sad, especially for me ... :-(


 

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Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on August 10, 2009, 03:43 AM:
 
Wimbert,
It may just be a slight misunderstanding of English (and if it is I apologise) but none of those things you mention have "gone" to Digital. They are ALL still ALIVE and WELL in their original form.

Martin
 

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Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on August 10, 2009, 07:08 AM:
 
Well like you,all my hobbies (Film,trains,records,cars) have all succumbed to what they call progress (??). As we are all skint in the UK its pleasing to know that we have a brilliant nation of preservers and above all,restorers.We need not worry unduly about progress as the older we get,the less concerned we become and love tinkering around with old things.
 

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Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on August 10, 2009, 07:34 AM:
 
For all you model railway enthusiasts, here is the ultimate solution...
http://www.hornby.com/building-a-model-railway/building-a-model-railway,36,HAR.html

AND

http://www.hornby.com/building-a-model-railway/building-a-model-railway,23,HAR.html

Who-o-o-o..Whoo! Wave that flag! Blow that whistle!
Martin
 

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Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 10, 2009, 07:40 AM:
 
For all you collectors out there, Vinyl, Trains and Films will NEVER go the way of glass milk bottles. If anything, the appreciation alone will maintain it's durable hold on a starved society - I steadfastly colelct particular LPs, more often sealed - The sound is clear, concise and lasting on my open recordings. Sorry, it's all great material, all origins are - Shorty
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 10, 2009, 09:35 AM:
 
(ps: on the other thread Michael has also given an alert ebout Digital Book vs Printed Paper. As you may have known, many printed newspapers are also closing their business and move to web page service)

quote:

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but none of those things you mention have "gone" to Digital. They are ALL still ALIVE and WELL in their original form.

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Martin, yes you are right that they are still alive.

But what I meant was the vinyl industry will have gone sooner. Industry means mass production. So in the future, vinyl may still be alive but only for a small market, likewise our 8mm/16mm films.

To date, we cannot say there is an 8mm film industry, because Derann and CFC are only doing a small business here.

But for vinyl, at least until now, we can still say there is an industry because of DJ things over there are their big market. Every day thousands of tunes have to be printed on vinyls because CD cannot compete the vinyl touch. But remember DJs use vinyl not because of the sound quality issue but more to the technical stuff where DJ can make a cue directly on vinyl surface. Before, with CDJ, DJs could not do this because they cannot see the tracks (grooves) on CD. But now, with the time coded vinyl they can "see" the groove and make a cue like what they do on vinyl (they virtually see the grooves but actually the software reads data on laptop)

Because of this, DJs will slowly move to this software because two main things, namely:

1. Price wise is cheaper to buy digital format
2. Simplicity where DJs don't need to bring hundreds of LPs

(The audiophilist are concerned with the sound quality of digital format, but DJ are not, as long as they can here "boom" and "bass" loudly).

The above Digital Turntable I mentioned previously, is just like comparing Compass vs GPS in our daily live, where Compass can only point the North or South direction, while in fact, GPS is not only doing that, but it can tell us at which intersection we have to turn left/right.

So, there is no any reasonable explanation to keep using Compass in the city if the price of a GPS is cheaper. And there is no point for DJs to bring their vinyls if software can replace it with a better touch.

In this situation, the industry will longer print vinyls and left digital takes over. And this is an initial signal of the death of vinyl INDUSTRY.

Of course, a small company (like Derann in 8mm case) may keep printing Vinyl but the price will go up significantly.

cheers,
 

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Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on August 10, 2009, 11:02 AM:
 
Winbert,

I work in broadcast TV, and as much as everyone wants to think that it's all High Definition now, it's not true.
The old formats hang on stubbornly, simply because they still are good enough for the job at hand. In some cases I shoot with cameras that are 10-15 years old; they work very well and the footage goes on the air. It's all about what is needed.

At home, I go with the "so what if it is outdated, it is good quality" approach.
I have about 500 LPs, a lot of cassettes, a bunch of 78s and a fair number of VHS and Beta tapes (and my 8mm and 16mm films.) 2 years ago I bought a high-quality reel-to-reel recorder.
They all play fine, regardless of how much the world says they should be landfill by now.

What I think has happened more than anything else is that the TOLERANCE for older things has diminished radically, through the power of advertizing.
It didn't use to be that there was such a sharp cutoff for older things, where you were looked at like a caveman for having or using them.

The relentless 'new is better' drumbeat lives off the notion that older things "pollute" the idea of wanting the latest, so it must be ridiculed and looked down upon.

The real irony for me is that while we supposedly are getting "better and better" technology, the collective appreciation of arts in general (music, films) is getting less and less; it is just increasingly becoming background noise.

When I put on a record or tape or film, I sit and pay attention to it (and I know you do too); it's not a casual thing, like using an IPod.
One of the best things in life is to just enjoy what you enjoy and not worry about what people say. Because a lot of the time, you will suddenly meet someone who enjoys it too. Like all of us on these forums.

(My Marklin HO trains are in storage, just waiting for the day when I have the space to put them up again..... )

Claus.
 

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Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on August 10, 2009, 02:42 PM:
 
Claus,

I have to agree with you about paying attention. I also have collected LP's all my life. While I do have many CD's, to me albums just have a warmth... a presence that you don't get with CD's.

And when I put an album on, I always check out the cover, read the liner notes, etc. Many covers are works of art and many albums where meant to be taken from start to finish. This experience I think will be lost on the coming generations.

I'll always love my records!

Bill
 

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Posted by Kurt Gardner (Member # 440) on August 10, 2009, 03:32 PM:
 
Vinyl, here in the States, is readily available and is actually expanding in variety. I'm a fan of contemporary alternative rock, and I buy all my fave bands' new releases on vinyl, but even pop and new movie soundtracks are coming out on vinyl. In addition, remastered collector's editions of classics from all genres are being released every month.

We're experiencing a renaissance, and the availability of vinyl through such major distributors as Amazon is making it easy for everyone in the world to purchase new music on those lovely licorice pizzas.
 

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 10, 2009, 04:23 PM:
 
Claus, Bill, Kurt, Martin and others, I am on the same boat with you that I love vinyls.

But the reality is here... yes that is true that vinyls are still readily available, but (I believe) it is because the real big market does still exist, i.e those DJs.

But since now, technology has invented digital vinyl or vinyl time code or whatsoever, the DJ will slowly leave this analog vinyl because of 2 reasons I mentioned previously.

Remember, as I mentioned above, most DJs are not die hard vinyl users like us who love the quality of analog sound, but they more look to the technical benefits of vinyl for DJ tricks that could not be done by CD before. But since now CDJ can do what vinyl can do, I believe DJ will shift to CD, eventually.

If DJs do not buy vinyls, therefore it is only us who are going to buy LPs.

By then, the price of vinyl will be sky rocketing and some of us will prevent to buy any LPs but more selective, some of us will definitely stop buying LPs because it is out of their budget and will only buy 2nd hand LP.

Finally, there only selective albums will be released on Vinyl, and furthermore, there should be a collective request made by collectors before a particular album will go to be pressed.

This is a scenario that we have been dealing with 8mm films so far.

cheers,
 

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 10, 2009, 06:38 PM:
 
LICORICE PIZZA!!

THAT is an awesome name for a rock band!! I wonder if anyone has used it yet. Heck, if I still had a band, I'd name it that!

Of course, the only downside is the inevitable scratching.
 

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Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 10, 2009, 07:50 PM:
 
I don't know about overseas,but in the U.S.,records are making quite the comeback.I went into Best Buy and the actually now have a vinyl section od hundreds of new pressings!
 

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Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 11, 2009, 05:38 AM:
 
Study it; LP shows abound, especially a major one in Manhattan and one on Route 22 in Springfield NJ - My "Antiques Trader" lists dozen of expos and related shows - The collector/dealer exchange abounds - True, "new" product is fledging but being made, film is very active and as along as we command/demand its releases, Derann, and others will so oblige. I feel we don't have anything to fret over. The markets for these and other hobbies persevere - Take gum card collecting, courtesy of "The Wrapper" and Les Davis - There are large strides in that both here and abroad, also the quarterly mag "Non-Sport Update" - Things slow down with tech changes, but the basics will always be here - You can't beat the original methods of creating levels of art forms - Importantly, when anyone sees a nicely-boxed or freshly-cellophaned item in film, LP, toy, card or whatever, don't we all appreciate that all the more and want it to continue? We do and it will - Shorty
 

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Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on August 11, 2009, 07:39 AM:
 
Hi,

I can understand Winbert's concern:
In the late 80's and early 90's one of the main topics of SciFi was "Virtual Reality"/"Cyberspace". Back then everyone was laughing about that idea as "such a thing would never exist as nobody would use it". When seeing older films or reading older books about "Virtual Reality"/"Cyberspace", everyone is still laughing for the same reason. But the fact is: "Virtual Reality"/"Cyberspace" is already here:

• Instead of playing with real model-trains, RC-cars, RC-helicopters, ... and creating real models, "everyone" is now using simulations "as it's cheaper and as it require less space".
• Instead of sitting together in one room and playing chess, RPGs, risk, poker, ... , "everyone" is now playing online-games.
• Instead of communicating face-to-face or via letters, newspapers, ..., "everything" is now digital/virtual: VoIP, skype, eMails, ePapers, eBooks, ...
• Instead of having the AV-information stored on a medium (LP, film-reel, vhs-cartridge, CD, DVD, ...), the data now only comes in digital form from "a source". E.g. one of my friends now has got a "streaming client" (with server). Since then it's unclear to me whether the film/music comes from a CD/DVD in the server, from the server's hard-drive or from anywhere in the net (internet-radio, youtube, virtual-video-stores, ...).
• ...

quote:

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AND DO NOT FORGET. When you are listening music from record you have one more sense working. Touch. You have to touch the record sleeve to take the record out, you have to touch the record to put it on the record player, you have to touch the record player to turn it on and put the needle on etc.

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Antonis,... that's exactly what those Japanese inventors are thinking, and that's why they release Mini-LP. Further more with their new inventions, now people can TOUCH the (time-code) vinyl, touch the record player, turn it, and put the needle on it. While actually the music come from a digital source....hehehee.

WE never understand with their inventions, especially, when they found electric pet!!! (i.e cat, dog, etc in our hand held, that we have to feed them on certain times...)

But I agree with you how we keep our hobbies alive. I never angry if my kid touches the projector (because I never have the fancy ones). I am just thinking if he make a damage on it, I will just go back to Ebay and get another replacement.

cheers,
 

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Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on August 16, 2009, 05:51 PM:
 
Winbert, have a look here;

project-audio.com

linn.co.uk/music_systems_sondek_LP12

I have owned a Linn LP12 for many years and worked for a time in the hi-fi trade when I first started my working life. It was generally understood within the trade even then (late 1980's - early 1990's) that CD was really, well, a bit rubbish (16 bit! HELLO we're talking early 1980's crappy home computer level here!!!)

Even with the best CD transport and digital to analogue convertors, CD just never even got close to vinyl on a good turntable, with a good arm and a good cartridge (and believe me I spent good money trying to prove this wrong!)

Fact is that (as I'm sure you appreciate) whilst a good turntable can cost a lot of cash and, in many ways, like our beloved 8mm, a lot of care to get just right; the right arm, cartridge, amplifier and speakers, etc... it will simply blow CD away. Sad fact is, of course, convenience is the key to mass market and quality must always take second place.

Good turntables and good vinyl simply DO NOT crackle and pop...they just sound great, but they cost...and they need love .

To this day when we have guests round and put a bit of music on (the speakers are in the front room, the turntable, amp hidden in the next room) I swear, even when the music is low level and we are just chatting someone will say, "who is this; what album is this; this sounds great...etc., etc..." The discussion always turns to the music, because that is what the Linn is playing...music, not background noise...

Vinyl, film...it isn't the technology, it's what you do with it.

But as for the future of vinyl releases (and super 8??), well...yes Winbert, sadly, as with so many things, the future may be digital...boo
 

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