8mm Forum: A contrast and a rant

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Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 26, 2009, 02:47 AM:

Wed night I screened a newly acquired 16mm print of SCROOGE (1935) for the first time.
There were 20 frames of main title card remaining - less than a second; most of my audience missed it, several areas of torn perfs causing annoying jumping on-screen, almost constant band of white lines down the right side of the screen - does this sound like an "excellent shape" print to you. Well, thats how the seller described it!! It is a well-used and well-worn ex-rental print from MSP, and this is how it should have been sold. This is the third time this year I've been sent crappy prints - and these were from known "reputable" dealers, who had described the prints as otherwise. As it happens they are in the US, making returning these prints expensive. With the SCROOGE print,I can repair the torn perfs and the print will be reasonably OK; the seller has said he will try to send me titles clipped from another print if he gets one in. So, I guess the guy is trying to help in this case, BUT...these flaws should have been mentioned as they would have been deal breakers for me.
I'm just sick of getting crap prints in the post.

By comparison, my missus got me the John Barrymore Collection DVD set for Christmas. I don't have DVD projection so these were watched only on a large screen TV. But, what a pleasure to be able to watch these movies without having to deal with all the crap that goes along with projecting dud prints.

I'm getting a little tired of the hobby because of this.
Sorry to be downbeat.
[Frown]

[ December 27, 2009, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael O'Regan ]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on December 26, 2009, 03:04 AM:

hate the player, not the game [Wink]

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on December 26, 2009, 03:41 AM:

Michael, this is a problem in all hobbies.

In addition to Super 8, I also collect vinyl records, and I often have similar problems here. The sellers describe the records as very good, near mint etc. but when I get them they are all scratched and barely playable.

The problem is that the sellers are lying in your face just to make a sale. Do what I do, I send them mails demanding my money back, or I'm reporting them to eBay, causing them to lose grades, which isn't good news for sellers.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 26, 2009, 03:48 AM:

Dino,I don't hate anybody. I'm just growing a little weary of it.

I'm wondering, how about you guys who collect mainly Super 8 - aside from colour fade, do you get a lot of poor prints in that gauge?
I love 16mm but its got to the stage where I'm just so reluctant to buy anything. Instead of looking forward to a print arriving I'm beginning to dread it. There are a couple of dealers who I trust implicitly, both in the US and here, but they don't always have the titles I'm after.

Christian, these were not Ebay sellers - I know that when I buy from Ebay and the seller is essentially an unknown, then, there is a certain risk involved.
These were private sales from sellers I thought I could trust.

Posted by David Erskine (Member # 1244) on December 26, 2009, 06:44 AM:

Gawd forbid I should try to teach a Guru like you to suck eggs (as our Grannies used to say) - but surely you cleaned lubed, repaired dodgy splices and perfs (a process I find strangely enjoyable) long before you announced you'd show it to an audience? I've always assumed 16mm would have been well used and needed TLC and purchased it on that basis. For my show to St. Gabriel's Group 9.5 I do all the maintenance and then project until I'm thoroughly bored with the program long before show date - if you take the mickey as much as I do, you have to be WELL prepared! Just a thought - and promise not to hit me (or I'll run away and cry!).
David E

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on December 26, 2009, 07:49 AM:

I also use alot of local sellers here, and I've similar problems with them aswell. No idea why, but that's life I guess.

Like David said here, I also check all my reels thouroghly (how the hell do you spell that word?) before screening to avoid malfunctions.

On poor reels; yes, I recieved a batch of poor reels once, all from the same seller. Turns out he had no idea what defined a good reel, so I ended up with four reels in the mail, three of these in rather bad condition, but the last one was OK.

They were all repairable but still annoying. That's why I prefer trying to get my reels here before going on eBay, or asking one of the trusted sellers listed on the forum.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 26, 2009, 10:04 AM:

As a rule, I check, repair when necessary, lube, etc. before showing to an audience - but, as I trusted the seller and the audience was just family I didn't on this occasion.

There was no way I would have been able to check and lube the title card back though, is there????

The print was described as being in "excellent shape" - it was far from it. I trust this part of the original post was visible to all!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 26, 2009, 10:07 AM:

"thoroughly"

I'm with you, Micheal, and the rant is justified. I had two terrible buys from two overseas sellers. Sadly, both purchases were off ebay, (yet one of the two, the STAR WARS Super 8 feature, was bought from a guy I bought other stuff from on ebay. Ebay items arrived, STAR WARS, which he curiously sent off seperately, didn't arrive. Coincidence? I think not! Damn that Lee!) I literally wrote off getting back into Super 8, but thought about it for a week, and my desire overcame my common sense!

Thankfully I think I can say that for every 9 good buys and trades, I have had 1 bad sale/trade. If I had written off getting back into Super 8, I would have missed out on finding the 8mm Forum, and I would have never met all these amazing people ...

Douglas Meltzer
Kevin faulkner
Joe "Shorty" Caruso
Winbert (can't spell the rest)
John Whittle
Jose Artilles
My Big Bro ... Keith Ashfield
Barry Atwood
The fine folks at Derann
Of course, you Micheal!
Larry Arpin
Dan Lail

and, could I possbily forget?

GIAN!!!

(as well as so many others)

I must say, though I have never met any of you in person, I truly feel that I would die a happy man if I got you all in the same room and we had a hell of a convention for a week or so!
My life would be somewhat empty without all our little jokes, diatribes against each others opinions and such. How much fun to constantly envy each others collections and learn so much. I do truly love this format!

It's been so long since I have seen that 1935 version of "Christmas Carol" Micheal. Is that the one where Marley's ghost sits down, unwraps his jaw, and it literally all but falls off? That shot really got me when I saw it, and I know it was in an early film version of this story.

Don't become too weary, my friend Micheal! I consider myself retired from collecting, (except for two choice titles). All I do is basically update what prints I have, but I still keep an open eye out for the odd print, and yoiks and away, the film bug bites me yet again!

May I be the first to wish you, Micheal, and all my friends on the Forum, a most Happy New Year! I toast you all, (and then I'll toast myself a dozen or so times ... hic!)

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 26, 2009, 11:00 AM:

I'll never show a reel to an audience without checking it first again...ever since the one time I did and it turned out to be porn!

The upside (for me, I guess) is it actually belonged to the audience. They just wanted to see what was on those reels they found in the attic! (Surprise!)

Moral: When you sense the end is near, write your will, forgive your enemies, make sure the people you love know it... and trash your porn!

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on December 26, 2009, 11:43 AM:

I hear you on the pain of the prints....

I have a 16mm copy of "The Last Laugh", the great Emil Jannings film, and the seller said it was a school library print, but he didn't really spell out that there were lengths of PerFix at the beginning of both reels.

Once past that, the print is very nice, but it's the 'getting past it' part....I love my Eikis dearly, but they do get a bit temperamental when they have to get up to speed in 'bumpy territory' like that. With some conditioning, the print runs better, but it would have been nice to know in advance.
I would still have bought it, but for the sake of fairness, this should have been mentioned.

But I agree, way too many sellers go by words only, no pics, and then keep it as useless as possible, i.e. 'nice condition' which says nothing.

My 'question' e-mails are getting increasingly detailed and firm if I want info on a print.
I hate to have to be that way, but one has to read these things almost like a lawyer these days. So many seem to want to slide by on "implication" of quality.

Claus.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on December 26, 2009, 01:24 PM:

Michael I didn't think you hated anyone, it is just a phrase, but sometimes I think it comes down to the level of personal control we have. If we do not fully know and trust a seller (it will usually limit what I would pay for a film) we have to take that into consideration. I have even bought films from people I highly respect and had it turn out to be a splicey mess, and found out it was a simple mistake where the seller accidentally switched the condition listings of 2 films. It really isn't anything new since back in the day you never really knew what sort of quality you were going to get on new prints from some of the places like Niles and Thunderbird, etc. It may have been a brand new print but a dark dupey mess. It is kind of a gamble, even with CD's and DVD's that throw around terms like Remastered and Restored only to find out they re-EQ'd it from a vinyl record or digitally transferred the movie from a 3/4 inch video....If quality is the key for you then ask all of the questions up front.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 26, 2009, 01:48 PM:

Osi,

The 1935 version is the Seymour Hicks version. As it happens, Marleys ghost is invisible in this one.
Thanks for the comments. Happy new year to you and your family too.

I just don't seem to have the patience with getting beat-up 16mm prints anymore.

Super 8 seems to be more and more attractive - you guys don't seem to have half as much hassle with your prints. Or (I never thought I'd say this) maybe I'd be better off with DVD.

Anyhow, thanks for letting me rant.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 26, 2009, 02:21 PM:

Listen, we need to give Digital its Due: it is an easier and cheaper means of watching movies. Despite the challenges (maybe even because of them...), cinema is more rewarding.

Someone here once said

"Why be bothered catching a fish when they have it frozen at the supermarket?

-it's the challenge, that's why."

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 26, 2009, 02:24 PM:

No sweat Micheal ...

This place, this Forum, is our equivilant of "Film Therapy Sessions".

Everybody, I'd like to introduce to the session, Micheal.
Will you all greet Micheal?

"Welcome Micheal!"

"Screw you Micheal!"

Micheal, please ignore our member in the back with terets syndrome. Will you introduce yourself.

(We could see Micheal get up before the circle, which is rather large)

"Hello, my name is Micheal, and I'm a film addict."

(many shaking of heads in the circle)

(Micheal starts to become emotional as he speaks)

"It started out so innocently. A little 50ft reel when I was a kid. So innocent, so harmless, but I found myself wanting more!
Then I found out about 200ft reels, I was beginning to get hooked."

"Let it out brother, let it out"

(states one Keith A. from the circle, his eyes shut in approval)

"Well, the 200ft's did me well for awhile, but soon, that wasn't enough. I had to have more MORE. The earlier hits on the projector just didn't give me that same high. I therefore found 400ft reels. 400ft!! But then ... I did something I'm so ashamed of ... I .. I ..."

"Let it out! It's cleansing."

"I started to DEAL!"

"Yes, its so true!"

(quothe one Douglas, a lifelong member of the F.A. group, "Filmaholics Annonymous")

"I started deal to my friends, getting them hooked, on 50fts, then the bigger hits. In the meantime, I continued to spiral downhill. I discovered ... discovered ... "

"Dont hold back ... "

"FEATURES!!"

"Amen brother!"

"Oh, just a three reel Laurel and Hardy, and I thought that might be enough, but I was found, sprawled out on the carpet, with a BEN HUR print!"

"Guys, I need help ... HELP!!"

"You've came to the right place, Micheal! You'll find understanding here and the4 support we all desperately need!"

Now, take a deep cleansing breathe, (in and out ... in and out),
and thread that favorite print in your collection and sit back and enjoy!

By the way, believe me Micheal, I'm sure that there is just as much frustration to Super 8 as there is in 16MM!

I hope you enjoyed my warped sense of humor. I know I do!

Posted by David Erskine (Member # 1244) on December 26, 2009, 04:11 PM:

I say, Osgood! You are SO daft you make me look sensible!! Thank goodness we ain't all locked up yet!
Cheers, David E

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on December 26, 2009, 05:06 PM:

To be honest I always assume I'm going to have to buy a second print of any title and combine. If I get a showable print first time - and mostly I do - it's a win.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on December 26, 2009, 07:39 PM:

I find no difference in 8mm, Super 8, 9.5mm, 16mm, 35mm it is buyer beware in all cases. That was the name of the game in 1979 and it is the same now.

I have had some shockers, an empty Super 8 box and reel "oh I don't know about film - no returns"!

I bought a Tex Ritter Western on 16mm a few years ago and it was described as good; it arrived with as many splices as frames and was edited!

In 1989 I also sent off $350 to a guy I had bought film from previously and he took the money and ran! Cashed the cheque and never supplied the film.

Overwhelmingly I have had good deals from the big sellers like Derann and little ebay guys having a clean out. The positives of this hobby today in the internet era are far and above many aspects of the game back in the early 1980's.

Part of the thrill is getting a good print of a treasured title. I love the "finds" where you have access to a deal that you have found through some dilligent research.

I also just bought 15 films just to get access to 2 - 3 that I am after.

There is always more upside to this hobby than down for me.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 27, 2009, 02:06 AM:

Steven,
If you mostly get a showable print first time, then why do you always assume you're going to have to buy a second print of each title?

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on December 27, 2009, 03:19 AM:

Brother Osi (Lil' Bro.)

quote:
I consider myself retired from collecting

You know that film collectors never "retire". They just simply "go red and fade away".

Just like in your "Filmaholic" scenario, I have to admit my "vice". I had been a "Filmaholic" for more than twenty years. Then, I took the "pledge" and went "cold turkey"

For twenty years I was "Clean", dear boy. Then an unplaned stop at a hotel for a drink and a toilet visit (not necessarily in that order) changed all that, forever.

I remember it well. The month was November. The year 2006. The hotel was "The Cliffs" in Blackpool.

Without prior knowledge, and completely by chance I had stumbled across a "clandestine meeting" of "filmaholics", who were indulging in the "vice" that I had left behind nearly twenty years prior.

It was that damn Northern Film Collectors Convention!

Before I knew it, I had broken "my pledge" and purchased a 400ft digest of "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" and was I "hooked" again. I have to admit now, that from that small indulgance, on that fateful day, I am again, a full-blown aholic.

I cannot stop it, believe me I've tried - I have even taken the "methadone cure of film collecting" - DVD projection - but I still have to get out my equipment, at least once a week, lace up "the stuff" we call "celluloid" and drift off into that fantasy world, in the dark.

Yes brothers, I too have been "peddled" some "dodgy stuff" over the years (in fact, the film that got me "hooked" at that hotel turned out to have more "grooves" on it than a 12" vinyl record).

Like you Michael,at times, I have looked at this "filthy habit" of ours and said,

"Is it all worth it?"

Only you can truly answer that question, my friend. But remember,in this world of ours, riddled with wars,recessions, famine and global warming - can you really do without that moment of happiness and joy, that we all feel, when we partake of that shot of "celluloid".

Never lose sight of the fact that you are not alone out there. There are always the "Freemasons of Film". That elite group of individuals, who belong to the 8mm Forum, to which you can turn to in your darkest hour.

Amen, Brothers.

As you can see "a warped sense of humour" seems to "run in the family". I wonder if this is a side effect of the "habit"?

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on December 27, 2009, 06:37 AM:

Keith, you are always the best one.

Sorry in reading about this, Michael. It won't help so much, but cannot even remember all the times the same has happened to me. And at least once to all of us, I suppose.
I do hope the seller you are referring to will do his best to replace the missing titles.

Good luck.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 27, 2009, 01:54 PM:

"Go red and fade away"

PRICELESS!

Getting back to Micheal, perhaps the best way to buy is to get a screenshot or shots of the print ahead of time, but even this is iffy, as they could just steal a screenshot on ebay. That has happened a number of times.

I've mentioned this before, but a few months back, there was a fella selling a print of "Empire Strikes Back Part 1 (400ft) and he had screenshots of the print, and it was obviously faded, but I admired that.

For the next two months I saw the same exact screenshots on at least six auctions after this. The dolts! They could have had perfect color prints but because of they're "theft" of screenshots, they sold they're prints short.

Heck, if your going to steal screenshots, at least have the intelligence to steal good color shots, for petes sake!

Keep the faith, my tired and beleagered brother!

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 27, 2009, 02:41 PM:

Yep.....tired and beleagured...thats me.....and cold and hungry.....and I have a bit of a headache too....sniff!! [Smile]

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on December 27, 2009, 03:23 PM:

quote:
Steven,
If you mostly get a showable print first time, then why do you always assume you're going to have to buy a second print of each title?

Just pessimistic, I guess...

'You should always assume the worst will happen. If it does you have the satisfaction of being proved right, if it doesn't you have a pleasant surprise.' Can't remember where that's from but someone will remind me, hopefully.

Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on December 27, 2009, 03:32 PM:

Michael, who did you buy the print from? If you don't want to say here then please e-mail me. Thanks

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 27, 2009, 05:17 PM:

Steven, that's fair comment [Smile]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on December 27, 2009, 09:48 PM:

Years ago before video tape and DVD the only way to watch movies "bigger than TV" other than going to the cinema was with 8/16mm etc, films were and still are very expensive, so you put up with the odd dud print. Those days are now long gone Video Projecting and DVD... now Blu-ray has changed all that. I remember years ago a friend of mine bought a 16mm feature from the US it was discribed as good condition, it cost him a lot of money and took a long time to get here.. well the print was red, so much for the "good condition" this was not the first time he had been caught out so he gave up on buying films and bought a video projector and a DVD player instead. I remember a 16mm feature "Oliver" the musical in Scope that was for sale from someone in Aussie, I was told it was also in very good condition.... it was lucky for me that I asked about the colour, the following reply was that it was red [Roll Eyes]

if a film is stated that it is in good condition then I expect the colour to be as well.....I did not buy it. There are a lot of good people you can deal with out there in film land [Smile]

but I would say there are also a few that are less than honest as well and that alone can be enough to kill off the interest for some in film collecting.

Graham.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on December 28, 2009, 03:11 AM:

Buying new pre-recorded VHS tapes was often worse! The times I changed tapes at shops because my machine wouldn't track it properly, jumps and glitches, those drop-outs that showed as white bars flashing across the screen. One time, NO recording on the tape, just white noise! The last couple of years I've been binning them. Only a few left now. Don't get me started on my laserdiscs with the brown patches on them. Binned.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 28, 2009, 09:34 AM:

Steven ...

I remember Kevin faulkner mentioning this as well, but I have over 200 laserdiscs and none of them have any brown patches. Was there something in the manufacture of them in the UK that caused this browning?

The only problem I ran into was my earlier laserdisc player left "scratches" (not visible ones, but it caused statiic to the picture near the end of each side.

I have noted, however, that a few of them have warped over the years.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 28, 2009, 11:19 AM:

I think that was a problem with European made Laserdiscs only. I think now I have got rid of all my spotty brown discs and replaced with with US or Japanese pressed versions.

As for the problem of crap prints I think this is a problem more with 16mm and I wonder if it's more a case of sellers giving descriptions from memory of the last time it was projected instead of doing a check before selling. I too have had red prints but the seller swears blind they are superb etc etc.

I still say that some of these sellers should be listed on the forum as a warning to others. If they are not members of this forum then there's nothing to worry about from the writers point of view. If they are members then maybe it may make them give more honest descriptions and at least an oportunity for them to have their say.

i have had 3 16mm features from Derann recently and they have been absolutely mint with superb colour which hashelped restore my feelings about collecting 16mm again. Yes guys I'm collecting 16mm over super8 [Eek!]

Kev.

Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on December 28, 2009, 01:53 PM:

Mike, thanks for the reply. Good to know [Wink]

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on December 28, 2009, 01:56 PM:

There were lots of problems with US laserdiscs as well. The problem was refered to as "laserrot" where the refelective media would corrude and thereby not be "read" or reflected by the laser.

This was tracked back to "inclusions" in the manufacturing process before the polycarbonate coating. The orginial manufacturer (LaserVision) had the problem at both US and Japanese factories.

This was later corrected and to their credit Pioneer USA would exchange any defective disc for a replacement for several years.

But there are still bad discs out there so be warned to screen anything on arrival. If it hasn't gone bad by now, chances are pretty good it will last.

By contast, the same problem didn't happen with DVDs inspite or many "knowlegeable people" trying to claim they did. But with billions of DVDs produced, if we had the same defective problem in manufacture, there would be millions of defects today.

As with film, only time is the true method of checking these problems.

John

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 28, 2009, 02:44 PM:

Yay! Always great to hear from John. Hope all is well with ya!

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on January 04, 2010, 07:35 AM:

Michael,

I am planning to put some footage together on a dvd to get some replacement footage for a few films I have, from this Italian guy (Marco). If you have a PAL dvd of Scrooge, I can include the footage you need, so he can print that too.

I have the dvd's I need for the replacement footage for my films. Now I need some software to extract the scenes I need. Has anyone a suggestion? (I'm a Mac user).

- Rob

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on January 04, 2010, 09:32 AM:

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the offer but, I don't have this title on DVD. Hopefully the original seller will send me the replacement footage in the not too distant future.

-Mike

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 05, 2010, 06:21 PM:

Michael...I saw the 1935 Scrooge in 16mm advertised in the new 'Classic Images' although I don't have it with me so I can't tell you to much....I remember it was at the very bottom of the page and it seemed really cheap. (maybe bargin is a better word)

I just happened to think about it so I thought I would post.

Bill

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on January 06, 2010, 06:44 AM:

Yes,I'm with Kev on this one.I too have secured some of the most fabulous 16mm prints from sources like Derann.The prints are unbeleivably- spliceless!.One really does need to know what sort of vendor you are dealing with.
Even greater peace of mind comes from BluRay and video projection.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on January 06, 2010, 12:39 PM:

Bill,
Thanks for the thought - I don't really want to buy another print just for the titles.
[Smile]

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