8mm Forum: What's with all the hate on digital?

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Posted by Mikel Jenson (Member # 2108) on July 19, 2010, 03:39 AM:

I mean I can see a little bit where your coming from. I mean I've only seen about 5 (REALLY SHORT REALLY BAD quality) films on film (at home) and I LOVE IT! but come on.. digital is not a terrible daemon.. just a little bit different.. It is a terribly different feel to both but I love both for everything they both can offer.. And come on.. whats wrong with HD TV? Seriously.. its just CinemaScope at home.. anyway.. just wondered..

/rant

(love the forum)

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 19, 2010, 06:03 AM:

No hatred at all. A lot of us project digital video and I'm pretty sure everybody has a DVD or blu-ray player.

What we do have a problem with is people showing up with the attitude that we should all scrap our projectors and film collections and go exclusively video.

The difference there is most or all of will use video but all of them won't use film.

Who's the haters now?

[ July 19, 2010, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on July 19, 2010, 06:58 AM:

How is High Definition TV similar to Cinemascope?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 19, 2010, 08:08 AM:

I'd agree that there's no real hate towards digital. In fact back in the 1980's, video probably helped to push the improvements in print quality as people would have been less inclined to pay the extra for film if prints had been mediocre. And it seems a clear fact that the proportion of film collectors with digital projection is vastly higher than the general population, so it's an exceptionally receptive group.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on July 19, 2010, 08:50 AM:

No hatred for digital media on my part.
My opinion is that film looks better and is the original medium of the art form.

To be honest, I probably spend a lot more on buying DVDs than I do on film. However I do not consider it to be in any way part of my Film Collecting hobby and I sometimes wonder why it's discussed on these forums.
That said, I have also come to realise that I am very much alone in this opinion so I tend to "live and let live".
[Smile]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 19, 2010, 08:52 AM:

Adrian,

I'd never thought of it that way, but it is true. One of my favorite film publishers spent their last couple of years printing a much higher proportion of releases with sound.

Why?

VCRs were out and they were feeling the heat.

In film collecting video is the equivalent of food from a can: cheap, easy, much less of a hassle when you just aren't up to really cooking something special.

It certainly has it's merits, but it's not as satisfying as a real meal cooked well.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 19, 2010, 09:21 AM:

Well if it were up to me, everything would be on super 8 sound. Scope, letter boxed, stereo sound. And you could still go to your main street camera shop for supplies and repairs.

OK. Hopefully that brought you back to the good old days. And yes, they are gone but not forgotten.

For those of you who weren't born yet back then, the ease of DVD stock and supplies is an exact match. Why even Kmart sold sound projectors and take up reels for your collection.

I wasn't interested in DVD before I got my projector for it.

And after my well thought out installation, I wouldn't give it a 2nd thought. DVD video projection rocks the house. Assuming it is set perfectly to your screen, and you've put every effort you can in to your setup based on your knowledge and budget.

The good old days may be gone, but I think of it as they've been replaced.

That being said, yes, I do believe that I will never spend hundreds of dollars on a new super 8 print that can take up to 9 months to receive with less than b grade mastering when I can get the DVD 3 miles away at Wal-Mart in the $5.00 bin.

But let me make it clear that I am positively hooked on super 8 sound. I will continue to buy used prints from well known dealers or members here. And I will NOT sell off any other part of my super 8 library or equipment. At nearly 200 titles plus quite a few cartoons, shorts, documentaries and trailers, it's a collection to behold. Recently I sold off several optical sound super 8 titles and upgraded the same titles to DVD for projection. I did this because I wanted the prints to be better looking on the screen, and I also knew there was a market for some of the titles I had. The ones I sold off totaled nearly $900.00 in sales. Compared to what it cost to replace them on DVD. Do the math. I did very good. But then I stopped. The rest of my optical sound prints are faded and I know I won't make much if I part ways and/or they are not available on DVD at this time.

And the weird thing is; adding the dvd with projection on to my big screen along with the super 8 sound, added fuel to the fire for watching movies at home. No longer do I wish when I go out to the big screen movies (rarely) that if only I could do that at home. Because i can do that at home any night I wish.

And for what DVD can do based on it's compact size; plus the thousands of titles in proper ratios with stunning sound, it looks like we definately have a winner that's going to be around for awhile.

However, I don't think my panasonic AX200U projector will outlast my st1200hd machines. It's not just possible. I only hope that i can change the lamp in the machine before the machine gives out. I'm not having trouble yet, but I predict the future.....

DVD movie watching can be fun again

Long live Super 8 Sound.

chip gelmini

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 19, 2010, 09:37 AM:

Yes,

I just added speakers on either side of my screen and the urge to tie in a VP has ratcheted up a few notches now.

I'm working the "Sound of Music Angle" with my wife. The idea of 'ol Julie bellowing out on that mountainside 8 feet across may just be enough to close this deal.

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on July 19, 2010, 04:13 PM:

.......one would have to be really daft to hate digital-it's like hating the times you live in;either we want it or not,it's the digital era! Plus, for many of us that deal with old film, most footage that has come available in the recent years can only be found in DVD format,as the originals will never-UNFORTUNATELY!-be copied & available in film........
........speaking of film collecting though, things are different:I can't see how someone that simply buys DVDs can be called a film collector; so cheap,easy & "passive",nothing to do with the core of our hobby as we know it......

Posted by Jose Artiles (Member # 471) on July 19, 2010, 10:05 PM:

Everybody here knows my posture about digital...
YES I HATE IT because its just an imitation of real cinema and is just tv projected..come on gentlemen,nothing and less digital can compare to the quality and natural texture of film and a one thing more WHY WE HAVE TO USE DIGITAL WHO TRY TO IMITATE REAL CINEMA WHEN WE CAN HAVE THE REAL FILM CINEMA??
noooo, film,lovely,charming and natural film.I will die at the side of my films and cine projectors and never,never will buy a VP,no sir,the true film collector just love films..the others try to justificate but they know the truth,if you are a film collector you only can love film,yes im radical but my mouth scream the true gentlemen...

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 20, 2010, 06:46 AM:

Hi Mikel, like many members here I use both film and digital.

I think both are a great means of watching a big screen film in a darkened, distraction free enviroment, which is, in some ways, what it's all about.

Of course, away from the presentation side of things, film is much more of a "hobby", with all the love and care you have to put into looking after those precious films and projectors, re-recording and tinkering, sometimes it can just be the joy of getting results that really excede your expectations.

Although, having used various forms of digital projection for over 10 years now, I still think that this is a format that also needs a lot of dedication and care in order to get really good results.

It would be crazy not to be glad that we have formats like blu-ray with which to enjoy films, especially new films which, sadly, will probably never see the light of day on film at home. Although my personal opinion is that getting a result from a digital projector at home that is anywhere near film quality comes at a price.

So room for both in my book.

Although, what I would say is that one amazing aspect of using "real" film is the community of like minded (some may say crazy [Wink]

) people that surround this hobby. Sure, there are some great AV forums out there, but you'd have to agree that the forums for us "film people" are rather special, friendly, courteous and helpful places.

And collecting and using "real" film over the years has given me some really special memories; the genuine excitment I felt buying a full length cinemascope print of "Star Wars" at the BFCC back in 1989! The madness of driving to London one Friday to have a super 8 print re-recorded by someone I'd never met before and the suprise at finding out just how much we had in common! Being a student with no money and going to a convention one year "just to look"...then finding a bargain price print of "Nosferau"... driving early one Sunday morning to a Derann open day just so my sister and I could buy all three Lord of the Rings trailers on super 8! Derek Simmonds standing behind a huge pile of 16mm features at Ealing many years ago, looking at me and my better half for a moment, then saying, with a big smile on his face, "go on, buy them all...you know you want to!"

Etc, etc...

Somehow I worry that collecting films digitally won't provide me with these same kind of memories.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 20, 2010, 08:22 AM:

The Digital Media is handy. It's easier, it's very portable when you factor in the 'net.

As much as I love film, If I showed up in a conference room for a training presentation and somebody was threading up an Elmo, I'd feel a little baffled.

-but that's not a hobby, It's a job to be done and it needs the most efficient means available.

Once again, my gripe is not at all with digital media, it's the idea that a lot of people would obsolete what we do as a hobby.

A hobby should never be completely practical or done in the cheapest, most efficient way. There is another word for that, we call it "work".

Work is about money, hobbys are more about fun.

Since it's so available and so diposable, accumulating video equipment and media really isn't collecting. It's just a means of seeing movies at home. That's fine: I plan to do more of it myself.

However, It's much more an extension of watching TV than what we do as film collectors.

Wouldn't you think the idea of someone watching TV as a hobby is a little...sad?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on July 20, 2010, 09:04 AM:

To be honest, Film Collecting to me is also "just a means of seeing movies at home" - but, I want to watch classic movies on film, which is their original medium. If there are titles which I'm unlikely to be able to afford on film ( which is a lot of titles, in my case!) or that are not likely to be easily found on film, then, I'll settle for a DVD.
The projectors, splicing, fiddling about with film in general - I'm not overly keen on this these days; it's a necessity in order to preserve and present my collection.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 20, 2010, 10:20 AM:

I have now been using a digital projector for almost 6 years. If someone were to now take it away from me I would probably kill to get it back! Digital projection has enabled me to view hundreds of classic, and not so classic, films which never have , and never will, make it to super 8mm prints. In the vast majority of cases digital projection of DVD's is far superior quality than super 8mm or even 16mm film projection, and the sound quality is of course in a different league altogether. As for Blu Ray projection, well it is so good that it is hard to imagine how it could be any better. I'm not saying its better than 35mm but it looks darned close. Try projecting the Blu Ray restoration of Casablanca, Snow White, Wizard of Oz, North by Northwest etc, and you will know what I am talking about.
So there is no way I could live without digital projection, and yes I do view buying DVD's and Blu Rays as a form of film collecting, and I do view digital home theater as a hobby as well as a great entertainment medium for me and my family, and friends.
Now about film collecting. As Steve, Rob, Chip and others have already said film is really a hobby. With film , you always have to be doing something, cleaning and lubricating and repairing projectors, cleaning and rewinding films, generating box art, etc. All great fun. Film is fascinating because you can hold it and touch it and see the little images, and when you are projecting film you are absolutely replicating the cinema process. In fact most vintage films, particularly silents, are somehow far more enjoyable when projected on a film projector than when seen by digital projection. I run super 8mm and a little 9.5mm. I have many super 8mm machines, one regular 8mm machine, and a couple of silent 9.5mm machines. They are all great in my book, and I love working with them and using them. I just got a S8 print of The Snowman from Jean-Marc Tussaint in France, and it is a joy to watch.
I totally agree with what Rob says about how film collecting is a unique close knit community. I have met people from all over the world as a result of posting on this, and other, film forums, and many of whom I now consider as friends.I cannot say the same at all about the AV forums.
Bottom line is, I really enjoy both digital and film. But in all honesty if I had to sacrifice one of them, then it would have to be film. Thats how much digital projection now means to me.

[ July 20, 2010, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Paul Adsett ]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 20, 2010, 11:27 AM:

I think that's a sacrifice we all face if we're around long enough.

-at least at that rate we'll still be able to watch films with a beam/on a screen and not squat behind the coffee table watching them on TV!

Back a few years ago Star Trek Voyager showed the crew assembled in the lounge for "Movie Night". They were seated in the dark and watching a 20th century movie on a large rectangular screen mounted high on the bulkhead.

-maybe some things'll never change!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on July 20, 2010, 06:36 PM:

Since the 70s I have been collecting Super8 film plus making the usual home movies and its certainly a hobby I have enjoyed. During the 70s through to the late 90s I regulary put on film shows away from home that included 16mm both at work and elsewhere. It was a lot of fun and the interest generated using film projectors was amazing, there is no way setting up a VP could have been the same....its plum boring in comparison [Wink]

I do use VP at home and its very good it does the job you shove the disc in and press play...brilliant its simple...but it aint the same look or fun as film projecting and never will be. If it came to the crunch [Roll Eyes]

between film or VP, film projecting for me will always win out. [Cool]

more interesting than video...dont you think! [Smile]

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on July 20, 2010, 07:07 PM:

OK, you can't splice a DVD. You have to sit through stuff you don't want as the screen says "operation prohibited by the disc" or something like that. What about when a disc freezes up? (e.g. the "best" of Abbott and Costello DVD sets -- the original double-sided ones.)

We do have other ways to store digital movies, like DVRs. But I have had some issues with them as well. Plus I'm always erasing to make room for something else.

Before VCRs, it was event when people came to the house to watch Super 8. For many, it still is an event today. But does anyone have get-togethers to watch DVDs? Maybe, but it still seems like people say "I'll lend you the DVD".

And -- at least in the U.S -- there hasn't been a definitive release of the Laurel and Hardy Hal Roach talkies. And some of my Our Gang DVDs from Cabin Fever freeze up as well.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 20, 2010, 07:57 PM:

Further to all the other points: although it is of course true that there are countless films that you can find on DVD that you will never see on the film, I have a LOT of entertaining shorts and quite a few features that are not available on DVD and probably most will never be. If you just collect mainstream features, that isn't an issue, if you look out for the quirky and unusual material I enjoy, it would be seriously limiting to give up film.

But when it comes down to it, film collectors don't have to offer reasons to justify being in the hobby - if you enjoy it, that's all that matters. It doesn't have to be cutting edge technolgy, as that's part of its charm.

It's interesting to note that there has been a revival of 7 inch singles in the last few years, and most are probably beought by young people under 20. They are clearly not bothered by vinyl not being the lastest thing!

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on July 20, 2010, 08:40 PM:

Hi Steve

I'm new here to the forum. Great reply about video vs film. There is nothing like the soft clickity clack of the framer on a projector. I just sold all my 16mm and started collecting 8mm. I live in a apt and can fit a lot more films.

Pat

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