8mm Forum: Yet another argument for film grain to remain!

This is topic Yet another argument for film grain to remain! in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 02, 2012, 12:43 PM:

I was over at the local thrift store and they had one of thier plasma projection TV's up with the Blu-Ray of "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves"

No doubt about it, Disney did a brilliant job cleaning it up. Too much in my opinion, as the flaws in animation are much more notice-able than before.

Then, a terrible moment.

It's just when Snow White and the animals first peek out of the woods to look at the Dwarves house, the next shot being, (I believe) a shot of the house.

When she has parted the woods to look, Snow White and all the animals stop moving. We are presented with a complete freeze-frame for about a second to two seconds.

Now, it's quite common in animation that, when there is a pause between actions, you will use the same cels for that shot, copied over and over again for the 24 fps, (or whatever amount of time the character is pausing).

However, the film grain inherent in film, will give that two second freeze frame the look of the scene not suddenly losing it's life. On the blu-ray, it just looks like the Blu-ray just stops, period. Without that film grain, were just looking at a still shot of the background and cels.

Anyhow, it was quite irritating for me. Most folks wouldn't even notice something like that, but the fact that I noticed it makes it un-nerving that the Disney restoration team wouldn't have noticed that as well and done perhaps something to compensate for that.

There's my two cents worth. Keep film grain, folks!

Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on February 02, 2012, 02:02 PM:

Typically in animation there are 12 drawing per second, each drawing shot for two frames. I was watching the DVD only a few weeks ago and remembered and saw the freeze frames you mention in a couple of scenes. The freeze is sometimes at the start of the scene or the end and is particularly noticeable during an action scene. The freeze is probably 4 frames in total. Each time it happens but can be a bit jarring. I don't why this was done, but I don't believe it was ever done on any later Disney film from memory, apart from Fantasia. Perhaps it was done to save costs, each frame (or pair of frames) would represent a significent cost.
But remember that the sound does not freeze on the film, it carries on as normal and I suspect on the original production the preference was to keep the sound correct in timing, so having an extra 'hold' on the cell would not be noticed by most of the audience. Remember that in animation the action is done to the prerecorded soundtrack.
I suspect the people who have restored it over the decades are well aware of these freezes but they are now part of the heritage of the film, and will never be cut.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on February 02, 2012, 08:16 PM:

Osi, I think I know exatly what you're saying here...that when the image is totally cold and digital, that a simple still shot, especially within animation (one which on film would have grain movement and perhaps a little weave and bounce, and thus integrate into the whole "moving" image) becomes startlingly, well, "still", once grain and frame movement is removed.

I found this a massive irritation on Disney DVD releases and, yes, it did seem to suck the "life" right out of them.

That said, I've found the blu-ray releases much more sympathetic to their film origins. True, they have been cleaned up enormously and grain removed, but certainly releases like "Snow White" and "Pinocchio" retain just enough grain to feel filmic.

Now on today's displays you can also introduce many aspects of processing, such as noise removal, etc. and maybe this was the case on the TV which you saw the blu-ray of "Snow White".

All I can say is, whilst I still believe in film, especially where the deficiencies of DVD are concerned, the blu-ray versions are the most convicing versions yet outside of a cinema; but only when shown properly.

Thing is, despite whatever care and work goes into a digital restoration, it can still be totally fouled up by a badly adjusted or badly set display...that goes for commercial cinema as well.

But when seen correctly, these restorations can be amazing. Being accustomed to watching "Snow White", "Bambi" and "Sleeping Beauty" on film, the very cold, clinical and disappointing look of DVD, made me approach the blu-ray versions with much trepidation.

In each case, I found the experience totally rewarding and involving; the detail on display allows you to behold the true artistry on display, yet never by being drawn out of the "filmic" experience itself.

Don't get me wrong, I'll not part with my super 8 prints, but in my experience, with a display set up properly (and that takes care and patience!), and with the largely considerate nature of the restoration work being done by Disney, I see blu-ray as currently a step in the right direction...unlike many formats before it.

Just watch "Sleeping Beauty" on blu-ray with a good, well calibrated projector and not only be absorbed by it's level of detail, but by the "film" itself...never once cold or clinical.

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 03, 2012, 07:36 AM:

quote:
it just looks like the Blu-ray just stops

Maybe the Bluray really stopped?! Think of the pause that occurs on double-layer-DVDs when switching the layer. Similar effects could occur on Blurays as they do have more than one layer as well...

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on February 04, 2012, 04:28 AM:

Doubt it, Joerg, as the layer change isn't detectable with blu-ray.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on February 04, 2012, 11:49 AM:

Most TV,s come with the Noise Reduction set on at least the middle setting and it really buggers up the image and causes a lag if you will, that is noticeable in itself, especially in more action or moving scenes, and really can de-focus the image to a degree often very badly.

Its not an issue on Projectors usually but any large screen TV especially LCD get that turned to off straight away.

If the manufacturers know this, why does it come set well on as standard I wonder.

I nearly took my LCD TV back, until the lady at the helpline told me to turn that right off and whoah, the picture is now superb with a few tweaks etc. Mind you I tweak every single DVD or Blu Ray I watch.

Its worth being a big picture tweaker as my TV was only from Aldi and when a chap was in my house fitting a Satelite Dish for me he thought the picture was amazing, and thats on a large but cheap supermarket TV.

Blue Ray projected is something else, but also you project the often £30 posted 21 std dvd L+Hardy UK set on an OK LCD projector they look very filmic and beat 16mm easily.

Films great fun, but for features etc Blu Ray is pretty seriously good.

Best Mark

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 04, 2012, 01:30 PM:

All good comments.

I also noticed it on my two disc deluxe version of "Snow White" from a few year ago. The blur-ray however, cleans up the image so much, that details, such as the white "sheen" added to Snow Whites hair, which looked fine on earlier releases, just doesn't have the same quality. Quite frnkly, it's too sharp.

It makes me very happy to have the Derann Super 8 feature of this title which was taken from the late 80's or early 90's restored release, and the colors are lovingly vibrant and it is very sharp. The only downside, (and I do need to re-record that), is that for some reason, the mono soundtrack is very soft and muddled ...

But that image, oh so lovely! My print was number 23 in the run, (which came with the original theatrical trailer, it's fun to see that yopung Disney himself in full color showing off the Dwarves statues), and it's priceless to me!

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 07, 2012, 07:35 AM:

quote:
The blur-ray however, cleans up the image so much, that details, such as the white "sheen" added to Snow Whites hair, which looked fine on earlier releases, just doesn't have the same quality. Quite frnkly, it's too sharp.

That's because the Bluray (Blur-ray [Wink]

) doesn't offer enough space for Full-HD (and wouldn't be fast enough to read and transfer the data in Full-HD at all). Hence they'll add some more filters while encoding (=removing details) the video for the Bluray. To hide this removal, they'll add some "sharpen"- and "edge enhancement"-filters... . This works fine for films/videos shot with real actors, real backgrounds, ... but causes some noticeable "errors" for cartoons, computer-animations, ... .

quote:
It makes me very happy to have the Derann Super 8 feature of this title which was taken from the late 80's or early 90's restored release, and the colors are lovingly vibrant and it is very sharp. The only downside, (and I do need to re-record that), is that for some reason, the mono soundtrack is very soft and muddled ...

Yes, that Derann-print is great! (Not sure about the English sound as a friend "only" has got a version with a re-recorded German soundtrack.)

Posted by Thomas Murin, Jr. (Member # 1745) on February 07, 2012, 04:55 PM:

Joerg, your info on Blu-Ray is wrong. From Wikipedia:

quote:
Blu-ray Discs are able to hold 1080p HD content, and most movies released on Blu-ray Disc produce a full 1080p HD picture when the player is connected to a 1080p HDTV via an HDMI cable. The Blu-ray Disc video specification allows encoding of 1080p24, 1080i50, and 1080i60. Generally this type of video runs at up to 40 megabits per second, compared to the 3.5 megabits per second for conventional standard definition TVs.

Yes, the video is compressed but less so and more efficently than DVD. The compression may introduce artifacts into the
picture but it does not affect the resolution. Uncompressed HD video will be clearer, nothing more.

An exception is Passive 3-D which actually reduces the resolution in half. Hence why Active 3-D is preferred as it can provide full 1080p HD video to each eye.

Most Blu-Ray players buffer enough of the video to prevent detection of the layer change.

quote:
Hence they'll add some more filters while encoding (=removing details) the video for the Bluray. To hide this removal, they'll add some "sharpen"- and "edge enhancement"-filters... . This works fine for films/videos shot with real actors, real backgrounds, ... but causes some noticeable "errors" for cartoons, computer-animations, ... .

Again, wrong. such filtering is usually added to the master, not the encode. Also, such filtering is done in an misguided attempt to make the video look better.

DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) is often applied to reduce film grain, but too much can remove detail. EE (edge enhancement) is then used to try to regain lost detail. The result is almost always a mess.

The studios now find themselves walking a fine line between what the masses want ( a smooth, grain free image) and what film fans want (a natural filmlike image).

For the most part, newer movies are DNR and EE free while catalog titles are a roll of the dice. For every Ben-Hur (a natural filmlike image), there is a Flash Gordon (1980/smooth detail free image).

As for Snow White, only the 2001 DVD has the freezing. It's an authoring error. Disney admitted this and offered a replacement program (now discontinued).

The Blu-Ray of Snow White was made from a new HD restoration and does not have the freezing.

I conclude that what Osi saw was the defective 2001 DVD playing in a Blu-Ray player. It is far more common for stores to play DVDs than Blu-Rays, I'm sad to say.

I have checked my Blu-Ray of Snow White. No freezing at the spot Osi mentioned.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 08, 2012, 12:57 PM:

No, honestly, I saw the Blu-ray, which is why I brought it up, but you are right, it's on the 2001 DVD as well, which I have.

Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on February 08, 2012, 01:58 PM:

I must point people back to my post earlier on in the thread. The still frames are a part of the film since 1937 and nothing to do with 'this and that' transfer.
They are kept there because this technical mistake was probably thought not to matter, most people would not notice them! Now these mistakes, and there are plenty in the earlier disney films, are now its heritage. Disney does not do a 'Lucas'(mostly) on its back catalog, but are cleaned up with timing errors, odd flashes of incorrect rostrum camera movements, and mistakes in cell painting left intact.
I worked in animation for almost 20 years, both in the computer and pre-hand draw era, so I'm well aware of the technical processes involved.

Posted by Thomas Murin, Jr. (Member # 1745) on February 08, 2012, 05:08 PM:

First, a correction. The Snow White DVD replacement I mentioned was for an authoring error which caused the menus to freeze. It had nothing to do with the movie.

Second, I believe Osi saw the Blu-Ray. If my friend says so then it is so! [Smile]

I'll check my Blu-Ray again, it's possible I just missed it. Hell, I haven't seen SW in some time so I'm due for a viewing!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 09, 2012, 12:55 PM:

I hear where your coming from Martin. Just to reiterate, even with a "still shot" the film grain allowed a still shot to appear as if there is still life there, due to the film grain.

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