8mm Forum: Pirated film

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Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 05, 2013, 06:01 AM:

My last visit to the cinema was to see the Tom Cruise film Valkrie; the cinema is not the experience it was. Within weeks of seeing this, I saw the DVD for sale in a Russian Mini Market in Oxford. I had previously bought DVDs while in Russia; most on sale had their original English soundtrack. I thought it odd that not only should the DVD be released so early, but that it was available in Russia, before the UK. When I watched the film I noticed what appeared to be shadows moving on the opening titles; I didn't remember seeing this at the original viewing, so watched the scene again and realised it was 2 people in the front row finding their seat. Someone had sat in the cinema and recorded the whole film from the projected image. There were a couple of good Video stores in St.Petersburg, and I came back loaded with DVDs, most of them I discovered were probably illegal, but any copy was better than no copy, especially as many were not available in the UK.

Posted by David M. Ballew (Member # 1818) on July 05, 2013, 05:06 PM:

Knowing of my love for a good "spooky" movie, a buddy of mine once invited me over to his house for a DVD viewing of The Grudge.

As we settled into the story, we became aware of weird suspirations on the soundtrack. We thought, "Wow, the ghost action really kicks in quickly with this movie. Great!"

But after a few minutes, we realized that all this strange whispering had just about zero connection with anything happening onscreen.

It wasn't until the voices started laughing and ordering someone to sit his rear end down that we realized we were watching a pirated edition, and that the "uncanny" voices we were hearing on the soundtrack were really the voices of theater patrons being recorded on video.

My friend was hugely embarrassed. We finished the movie... and I haven't watched The Grudge since. It couldn't possibly have the same entertainment value in a legitimate edition!

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on July 06, 2013, 06:20 PM:

In Memphis, TN, a lady was arrested for recording "DESPICABLE ME 2". She had cut out a hole in her popcorn container for the lens of her camera to record the film. Police searched her home, and found over 11,000 copies of pirated films, various hard drives with downloaded illegal copies, and numerous recording devices. Her bail: $25,000. I'm sure she has that easily, under the mattress. SURELY, the FBI will become involved in this.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 07, 2013, 03:59 AM:

Has anyone come across this situation. My wife wanted to see The King's Speech, with Colin Firth. For some reason, maybe her work commitments, we couldn't make it; but while it was running at our local cinema, my wife found the complete movie available for download from Russia. So we got to see the film at the same time it was still playing.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 07, 2013, 05:07 AM:

Distribution of pirate film titles is big business, often used to fund much sinister criminal activity.

So next time you rush to watch a pirate of a new release, rather than wait the 12 weeks or so for a legit, quality release, just consider the sort of horrendous criminal activity you may be funding...

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 08, 2013, 03:33 AM:

I used to feel sorry for the distribution companies etc being
cheated, until I read of the many recording artists that have been
cheated by them over the years.

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on July 14, 2013, 07:24 AM:

Rob is right.... you could be helping to fund the next terrorism act when you do that download, so please think twice.

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 14, 2013, 08:20 AM:

Greg, sarcasm I hope. Right?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on July 14, 2013, 12:38 PM:

So, all of your 16mm films that you bought over the years have been legit studio releases?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 14, 2013, 05:12 PM:

A very valid point Michael. we all have in our collections, prints
we should'nt have, like I SAID BEFORE, there are many recording artists, that have been RIPPED OFF, by the self same studios, that are now being hurt, TOUGH, the great Louis Armstrong for one
was cruelly robbed by them ( and I am not coloured) but I'm
well annoyed that the man was treated so badly, as were many others, to this day, so sod 'em! They have ruled the roost too long,
with their so called contracts to talented folk, screw 'em.They have
brought it on themselves.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 15, 2013, 02:29 AM:

Michael was going off the thread by introducing 16mm. By and large, shorts were legally available to buy, Movie-Paks, Castle, and many others.

However, as regards 16mm features, here we enter a very grey area, a lot of copies coming in the back door, although I believe that the US television stations could legally sell off their black & white features which they owned when they were made redundant by the introduction of colour TV.

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on July 15, 2013, 07:26 AM:

I believe the main subject we are talking about here is piracy of current motion pictures that are showing in theatres, being copied by recording devices off the screen and sold on the black market for profit for the individuals, as well as the possibility of funding other criminial activities, such as terrorist acts. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being real. This is a far cry from a 16mm print sold from collector to collector. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 15, 2013, 07:59 AM:

Michael made the point of piracy that doesn't stop with DVD, in
the past video, before that film.The means have been given to
download,gadgets are available to copy from computer. The folks
pirating didn't make this stuff themselves, it is freely available.
If you're going to make it possible,don't be suprised when somebody does.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 15, 2013, 08:47 AM:

I agree with what Greg says in respect of 16mm copies.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 15, 2013, 08:53 AM:

Many of us may own film that isn't legally ours to own or show.

That is different to buying new digital product simply because you cannot wait for an official release.

You will simply ruin your own enjoyment by watching inferior product.

You will also be funding illegal activities, at worst sex trafficking and illegal drug distribution.

Fact.

Slightly different to owning a non-copyright version of a 16mm / 35mm film that was sold at a profit and was found falling off the back of a van, although I take the point.

Don't bother buying this stuff.

Just wait; then buy an official release of superior quality at a very reasonable price.

Then try not to have the guilt burden of worrying that a film company executive is snorting coke on the back of a successful film, because at least you have remained above the law and you have a top quality version of the film which is yours for a few quid and available within 3 months of the theatrical release.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on July 15, 2013, 09:34 AM:

I have difficulty understanding the DESPERATION people seem to feel to see a film the minute it enters the cinema, the same desperation that drives them to purchase pirated copies on DVD or to download them.
After all, the film is the SAME film whether you see it the day of first release... or two years down the line!
This is borne out by the fact that "film collectors" are happy to run their prints time and time again: the film never ages.
I know I am unusual on this Forum: I don't collect Film and I haven't actually watched a film in a cinema since I took my Grandchildren to see "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" about 15 years ago! I usually wait to see a film after it has been shown on Cinema Release, DVD and Pay TV. At that time it's still NEW to me!
I DO collect DVDs and BluRays, but I buy them on Car Boot Sales and from Charity Shops for "pennies" (they still run perfectly well as long as they are not physically damaged) an collect the FREE ones from newspapers.I have a collection of over 1000... ALL totally legitimate. Sometimes I have bought "reasonably new" if it's something I really want. But I always wait until the shop price has dropped significantly ("Les Miserables" released on BluRay at £15.. it's now available after two months at £9, so I'll wait a little longer!).
All it requires is a little discipline.... and a limited budget! Perhaps that's the problem: too much money in peoples' pockets and a "must have" mentality.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 15, 2013, 09:59 AM:

Some of our older UK members may remember DCR films on the Isle of Wight, they legitimately sold Scrooge, starring Alastair Sim, but it came to their notice that someone was selling an unlawful cut down version under the title 'A Christmas Carol'. A notice was issued that Renown Pictures, the owner of the work, would take legal action if these copies continued. I don't know if the identity of the pirater was known.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 15, 2013, 10:04 AM:

Robert

Renown are advertising DVDs of "Scrooge" in a colorized version. It's been on TV a lot, together with a "coloured" version of "Tom Brown's School Days".

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 15, 2013, 11:22 AM:

This I mentioned in an earlier thread Robert, and the company that released the "pirate" film.............Columbia Films.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 15, 2013, 02:11 PM:

Maurice, I have the colorized Scrooge as a freebie from a paper, the colours are not that good. I wouldn't like to see Tom Brown's Schooldays in colour. I have both in Super 8. Both by Brian Desmond Hurst; you can see the influence of David Lean here. Getting back to the subject, colorization has gone to far, some films are meant to be in black and white for the atmosphere.

Hugh, I didn't know that Columbia of all people were responsible for a pirated film. I sent you 2 PMs a few days ago in reply to yours.

I was wondering if anyone had bought a 16mm feature and ended up with one of those awful television reissues of very poor quality. C&C Corp is one name, I believe these were RKO reissues, on a DVD I have a Universal Sherlock Holmes film that is a reissue.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on July 15, 2013, 02:15 PM:

That colourised Scrooge turns up every year on TV now. Like all colourised versions of B&W movies, it sickens me.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 16, 2013, 04:39 AM:

I haven't seen "Scrooge", but I must admit that "Tom Brown's Schooldays" is acceptable, and it is far superior than some of the old faded prints that TV sometimes shows.
Having said that, I would still prefer to see it in good old black and white.

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 16, 2013, 11:24 AM:

quote:
I believe the main subject we are talking about here is piracy of current motion pictures that are showing in theatres, being copied by recording devices off the screen and sold on the black market for profit for the individuals, as well as the possibility of funding other criminial activities, such as terrorist acts. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being real. This is a far cry from a 16mm print sold from collector to collector. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Greg, my asking if you were being sarcastic was not on the difference between 16mm prints and telesync bootlegs. It was regarding your statement that bootleg movies fund terrorism.

I won't dispute the notion that the sale of black market items may fund further illegal activities. I have no information to dispute it and it seems like a realistic notion.

How exactly do plan to prove that BitTorrent funds terrorism? The highest volume of bootlegs (telesync, DVD/BluRay rips, and DVR rips) are put into consumer hands through torrenting. Simply because peer to peer networks are fast and pervasive. How does a free pirated download fund terrorism? Perhaps you misspoke when you said "download." Perhaps you were generalizing?

I don't condone piracy in principle and there are many ways to state how and why it shouldn't be done. I've never heard any claim, read any article, discussed with any politician, attended any panel that would substantiate the idea that it (free piracy) funds terrorism.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on July 16, 2013, 11:57 AM:

That sort of pirated film is called a TC or Telecine in online markets. Here's a short list of the "online formats":

TC / Telecine: Recorded directly from the screen, with audio recorded with the cam microphone.
TS / TeleSync: Video recorded from screen, but synchronized with a separate audio source, i.e. headphone jack in the seats.
R5/R6: Means "Region 5" or "Region 6". Video comes from pirated, high-quality DVDs from Russia or China, and overdubbed with English TS or TC audio.
DVDScr: Ripped/copied from a screener DVD, usually has watermarks and/or sections of black-and-white to make it less attractive for pirate markets.
DVDRip: Ripped from legitimate store-bought DVD.
BRRip: As above, but from BluRay. Usually has 720p or 1080p designation in the filename aswell.

XviD, H.264, DivX etc. = the various video codecs used.

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 16, 2013, 12:01 PM:

And usually the birate of these bluray rips is cut in half. Not ideal for the avid film enthusiast.

And that is certainly a more specific breakdown of the formats I briefly listed but is it a direct response to the terrorism conversation?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 16, 2013, 12:04 PM:

Just shows how advanced the various techniques are. A far cry
from the pirate video my mate loaned me,that he had purchased
in Spain, of "Jurassic Park", that was just about unwatchable,
blurred picture, unintelligible sound, and people moving about
going to the bathroom.

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 16, 2013, 12:13 PM:

It's the same reason streaming services are still not up to the quality of BluRay. Most of this is due to artificial restrictions on bandwidth.

BluRay rips are usually up to 15mbps. The actual BluRay can be up 50mbps. Huuge difference if you project it on a screen. Of course many many many more people will just watch this stuff on their iPads and laptops so they won't really notice.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 16, 2013, 02:50 PM:

Just to put this thing back in perspective, the pirating, crime thing
not that I'm a gangster, has always been there, during the time of prohibition, war was declared on Mr Al Capone, resident bad guy, but at least he provided soup kitchens for the starving poor, which is more than
the City Fathers of Chicago did. Proving, that everyone has a good
side, which is more than modern politicians have. Or is Doug gonna delete this thread too.
Piracey has gone on since man, the antiques following is tortured
by the fakes men, long before the Chinese latched on, this is
something that is now out there,I don't have too much sympathy with a locksmith that tells you how to pick a lock
then offers the same knowledge to all and sundry.The problem
is now the technology is working against them.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on July 16, 2013, 04:29 PM:

Didn't even read the terrorism part before I replied! [Razz]

I very much doubt that pirated films fund anything other than the pockets of those doing it. As someone who has grown up during the "age of piracy", I have seen everything from DVDrips to cheap Chinese DVDs, and at 50 cents/1 dollar a pop, they really don't fund anything. It's maybe a 10-30 cent profit for the seller, nothing more.

Pirated films funding terrorism is quite a stretch at best. If that WAS the case, then most pirated films would be from the parts of the world where terrorism is a problem, not China and Korea.

Ernie: In 2011, during a two week sick leave, I copied all of my DVDs to my computer to get shelf space. I "ripped" them all at 2000 kbits video and 256 kbit MP3 audio, because that was ideal as a size-quality ratio for a DVD. That made most of my films around 1,8 GB for two hours (so 900 MB/hour), and with very little quality loss, at least when viewed on my 46" TV or laptop (17"). You are of course very right when it comes to projectors!

I compared a 1080p film streamed via iTunes (7,5 mbit) to a BluRay (50 mbit) of the same film, both with projector, and it was a monumental difference!

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 16, 2013, 04:32 PM:

There is also the loss of revenue to the film companies, and royalties to the actors. America must take some of the blame for this, they dominate the internet, and virtually every programme that you download is American. One day out of curiosity I searched to see it it was possible to override copy protected DVDs, and found a programme called DVD43, there are others.
A few years ago I purchased a box set of the Russian Sherlock Holmes , Vasily Livanov: one disc had a region error and would only play on the computer. It was too long to fit onto a blank DVD, but I found another free programme that reduced the size, without any noticeable (to me) loss of quality, and I was able to view the films on the TV.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 16, 2013, 04:51 PM:

I am going to put myself out on a limb here, but the USA, YES
the USA, has a lot to answer for, regarding piracey, me, I LOVE IT
you have this empire that you don't like anyone to mention, but
it's coming back to bite you in the arse, can't be bad.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 16, 2013, 09:39 PM:

Personally I blame Wyoming! They wear big hats and ride horses, they must be up to something! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on July 17, 2013, 07:55 AM:

I'm just saying to not discount the possibility of it funding big criminal activities. The funds are probably laundered, moved around and disguised as to its origin, and put into the pockets of people and organizations that help fund and support more criminal acts, terrorism included. I work for a bank. We hear of similar things like this all the time, while trying to prevent it. It is not an impossibility that the big business of copyrighted material piracy is included. We, on this level, the consumer, is not going to see it. If these types of criminals can find a source of cash to add to their bigger cash flow pot, they will do it. Just sayin'.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on July 17, 2013, 09:08 AM:

Ernie, you asked... "How exactly do plan to prove that BitTorrent funds terrorism? The highest volume of bootlegs (telesync, DVD/BluRay rips, and DVR rips) are put into consumer hands through torrenting. Simply because peer to peer networks are fast and pervasive. How does a free pirated download fund terrorism? Perhaps you misspoke when you said "download." Perhaps you were generalizing?

I don't condone piracy in principle and there are many ways to state how and why it shouldn't be done. I've never heard any claim, read any article, discussed with any politician, attended any panel that would substantiate the idea that it (free piracy) funds terrorism."

It's not the act of (free) downloading or free piracy in general that funds illegal activity, including terrorism, it's the SALE of the pirated discs produced from those activities that produces the funds. "Piracy" by definition is the stealing of the money due to the "intellectual owner" and diverting those funds to the benefit of others. Making copies by whatever means for one's own purposes WITHOUT paying for the source material is straightforward THEFT... because that also deprives the intellectual owner and his agents of their just remuneration.
Most people will come up with a variety of reasons why doing this hurts nobody (in order to justify their doing it) but the plain, unvarnished truth is.... it's THEFT.
Martin

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 17, 2013, 10:00 AM:

Martin my post was directly in response to Greg's claim that downloads fund terrorism. You're are making my point. PLease read the whole thread before responding.

In regards to theft VS piracy, your pedantic correction may be technically correct but this conversation has been going on since the age of Napster and theft and piracy have been used interchangeably. Correcting my vocab is adjacent to the issue. I'm trying to argue that torrenting as a funder for terrorism is a baseless claim.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 17, 2013, 10:14 AM:

When I started this thread I didn't imagine it would lead to arguments among members; maybe I should pull the plug on it. I think the subject has been well covered.

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 17, 2013, 11:50 AM:

I'm sorry. I just didn't appreciate the terrorism claim.

It's that kind of Reefer Madness-esque paranoia that propagates perceptions of the U.S., like the one that Hugh shared.

These "War on..." campaigns have made the U.S. look like a bunch of imperialistic, violent, and fearful stooges.

Some of the folks in this entertainment industry tried that approach with SOPA. And it failed. Because many more of us think there is a better way to handle theft and piracy.

Greg, I don't dislike you and if you're on this forum then you're probably a nice guy! I'm very close to this issue as a filmmaker, a digital rights activist, and as someone who's close to the people who directly influence and actively participate in the legislation/policies surrounding these issues. I don't appreciate arbitrary claims when they are so extreme. Terrorism is horrendous. Claims of its activities and funding sources shouldn't be thrown around so casually without concrete proof.

DONE

If you'd like to continue this conversation send me an email!

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on July 17, 2013, 02:47 PM:

Something in the air lately that steers topics in a certain direction.....

Doug

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on July 17, 2013, 03:01 PM:

Ernie, I don't want anyone to fall out over this. I just thought that the fact I ended up with a film that had been copied inside the cinema would make an interesting conversation piece.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 17, 2013, 03:11 PM:

A friend thought he was doing us a favor gave us one of these including people walking back and forth and snippets of conversation during the movie (Actually, It was a lot like being at the theater...)

About the best you can say for it is we liked the movie, so we bought a legit. copy and enjoyed it much better!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on July 18, 2013, 02:38 PM:

Arr me hearties....

...just kidding
cant see the point in pirate "dvds" dont have any and wont support it.

Graham.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 18, 2013, 03:16 PM:

Why would you need to when we finally have top quality versions of movies available to us at home in less than 12 weeks of release.

BTW, sorry to repeat this point (and I'm certainly not going down any sort of "grey" "terrorism" route) but if you think you can just buy a dodgy disc thinking that some hookey bloke makes a few quid out of it at best and comfort yourself with that, then let's hope you are right; because generally you are not and are funding all sorts of illegal crime.

I've seen stolen digital master versions ********************* ...sort of violations. EDIT: Upon reflection, I think it best to re-tract this part of my post.

Sleep at night.

Or just don't buy this s**t.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 18, 2013, 05:27 PM:

I can't see the point of pirated DVD, they're quite reasonably priced for a decent copy. I can remember being told by my late
Brother in law, that when he worked on the oil rigs, that there
were copies of films shipped out to them for viewing, that on the
mainland hadn't been in the cinemas, this was also backed up by
my mates that worked on them.

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on July 18, 2013, 06:05 PM:

Thank you, Rob. Criminal activity for profit, funds other criminal activites, whether directly, or indirectly. The chain is hard to trace at times.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 18, 2013, 06:11 PM:

I once spent an awful time post-surgery in a Chinese hospital...
A mate bought me "Iron-Man" ...brand new UK cinemas, totally illegal, but very convincing copy, until I realised when the morphine wore off, it was an illegal copy and the the English "hard-of-hearing" sub-titles were hilariously bad!!!

Sorry, but please don't even entertain this rubbish.

Because, at the very least, a stooped Westerner will burst their stitches!!! [Smile]

Greg, I know I'm making light of a serious subject, and I stand by my comments.

Don't buy this rubbish, there is no point to do so.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 19, 2013, 02:25 AM:

As Hugh said, original authentic DVDs are so cheap these days there is no point in buying inferior unknown copies which could be pirated and illegal.

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