8mm Forum: Forbidden digital?

This is topic Forbidden digital? in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on August 25, 2015, 05:04 AM:

As somebody forcibly retired fom the film industry due to the digital takeover in the cinemas, I feel I have some grounding in the digi/film discussion too.
From my start with toy projectors as a child, through a pathe Ace and many more projectors, I now find myself retired, with an 8 and 16mm projector and films that I enjoy but have seen dozens of times with the family.
What is the eduring appeal of this hobby? The machine itself, the reels of film, even the scratches and joins, I love it all!
How often, though, can I add to my collection? Forget it!
Ok, I just invested in a second hand DVD projector, and I sort of feel a traitor.
On the other hand, I have stacks of films in my DVD collection to run on it, and mostly the quality is great.
The point is that, yes, this is the 8mm Forum, dedicated to lovers of film, and I suggest all manner of film presentation, but to suggest digital talk is not in the correct spirit of the hobby is perhaps blinkered.
If you can afford the films, get them, but we don't all have the space or the necessary funds.

[ August 27, 2015, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Allan Broadfield ]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2015, 05:11 AM:

The costs of the very best on each gauge is prohibitive to many Allan I agree.

I'm glad you're still able to enjoy your films albeit in a format that you consider a compromise.

It is a good thing that these days there is an alternative to spending many thousands of pounds on films for people who are in no position to do so any more maybe through retirement and such.

Ultimately all that matters is that you get to enjoy the films you love Allan.... on the big screen of course! [Wink]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2015, 05:49 AM:

General Yak has been and still is the place for video discussion. "Forbidden" is too strong a word. I like "kept within context" a lot better.

It's kind of like this: When John Black laid the ground rules for vendors at CineSea he sad they could sell DVDs and posters or whatever (within reason), but they had to sell film too.

I think we are trying to strike a reasonable middle ground here. We do not forbid video discussion, but we shouldn't make it co-equal here with collecting traditional film, but more as a supplement.

The threat that if we don't join with the herd we are facing extinction is false. If the purpose here is reeled film and reeled film ends, then its job will be completed and it's OK that the light goes out. The fifty-zillion video forums out there will take up the slack and never notice the difference.

It would be just the same as if a sailing forum decided that power boating is the same thing. Yes, at the end of the day they do the same thing, but they aren't the same.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2015, 05:55 AM:

I think that is great idea..where at conventions you can sell dvds etc but only if you also have film to sell.

That would certainly be a great rule implemented to our conventions to keep things healthy for collectors.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2015, 06:12 AM:

I'm in my early fifties (some would even say "mid"). I take reasonable care of myself and my family often lives into their eighties and nineties, so I have every expectation I will outlive my film collecting days.

So my interpretation of what we are up to here is to allow this thing of ours some protected space to thrive as much as it can, and as long as it can. (Come the end of the day at least we had fun.)

Maybe in retirement I'll be on some forum somewhere defending two dimensional presentation against interactive holography (-once they produce porn it will be the end of the species: -no candy, no flowers, just press "play"!), but here and now it will be reels with film on them.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on August 25, 2015, 06:25 AM:

We are lucky to be able to buy a video projector at all in my opinion. I mean the video could be all big screen flat screens. Big flat TV screen or film projectors for film. I wouldn't be happy with that option. So glad to have my Panasonic VP.

I went to John Lewis recently ( for USA readers an upmarket department store ) and looked at the TV section: 4K, curved screens and a 78" diagonal 4K screen for £10,000! Well now, looking at that Samsung 4K screen of 78" I realised that is about the size I project from my video projector. I had the day before been running the Blu-Ray of FUNNY FACE, the Astaire musical. I wouldn't have swapped for the Samsung TV. Apart from the literally monumental task that getting the Samsung into the house might be, the end result was too bright, glowing, video-looking. Although the colour being set too high could be lowered. FUNNY FACE on my Panasonic VP on the other hand was matt-looking, very film-like and pin sharp with lovely natural colours. The price of the Panasonic projector was also less than a quarter of the price of the Samsung. In fact about 19% of the price of the large, awkward to install and fixed at 78" and over-vivid Samsung. No contest.

In my opinion the flat screens will never be as good as video projection because they are always emitting the light directly at you, glowing at you where the projection reflects light and is more matt-looking as in nature. People don't actually glow in real life so a TV screen never looks as natural.

So that 78" Samsung at £10,000, well that money buys the Panasonic HD video projector, an Elmo GS Xenon, an Elmo LX 16mm Xenon, Scope lenses for both film projectors, 5-way Kef hi-fi speakers, including left and right floor standers and an AV amplifier. And change left over for some nice 16mm prints...

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2015, 06:35 AM:

I agree.

I also like the fact that you can roll a projection screen up and basically remove if from the room.

-you ever sit in somebody's family room with a 10 foot diagonal screen hanging on the wall?

Talk about the elephant in the room!

Even extinguished it's whispering to everybody at the party:

"These people are boring! Pick up the remote, It's right next to you. (I'm on satellite!)"

See: not forbidden!

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on August 25, 2015, 06:55 AM:

Of course the massive TV would be harder to steal than a rolled up screen and projector, but not much other advantage in my mind.
I did ask at an early Sony HDTV demonstration (1125 line off laserdisc)about the weight of the 36" Trinitron monitor, they said it took 6 of them to lift from the flight case!!!! NO chance of anyone running off with that.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2015, 07:13 AM:

I'd never buy bigger than a 46" TV for my lounge.
Quite besides the fact anything bigger would dwarf the room as is the case in a lot of UK homes I visit with huge tvs, I like to keep big screen occasions for something special...a spectacle, not for watching News At Ten.

Stare at any 78" screen for long enough and no large image has any impact any longer, your eyes just adjust to its size as if it's the norm.

Projection screens are great for the home. One click of the remote and the whole thing retracts into its elegant slimline white box in under 20seconds. Just perfect and nothing to permanently overface you as you enter the room.

Posted by Steve Carter (Member # 4821) on August 25, 2015, 07:32 AM:

With-out Digital we would not be talking on this forum or any other. When I had an analog multi track home recording studio I thought it was the best, that was before I went over to digital, no more destructive editing,no tape hiss, more tracks, more everything, if it wasn't for my hearing loss I would still be using it, it was fun and the things you could do in the home with it, which in the past would have cost a fortune in studio time was an endless pleasure for me...

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on August 25, 2015, 08:04 AM:

Has something to do, for me at least, with the amount. General Yak is now the top thread here, and it's a film forum. Why, oh, why discuss more digital?

Just too frustrating this for me.

Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on August 25, 2015, 08:37 AM:

I know what you mean, Steve -- I was in broadcasting in the early 1980s, and I've always said that I was in it too early -- that is, I was in broadcasting during the analog era when one had to manually splice/edit reel-to-reel tapes for radio, and deal with huge TV cameras that weighed a ton and 3/4-inch tape decks slung over my other shoulder. It's a totally different (and much better) situation with today's technology. What once took me days in the edit suite now only takes a few minutes -- and the results are outstanding broadcast-wise. If we only had today's technology back then, I might not have the back problems I have today! 😃

(Vidar, really, it's no big deal. There are plenty of other more important things in life to worry about -- )

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on August 25, 2015, 08:42 AM:

I know, I am wasting time here. :-(

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on August 25, 2015, 09:05 AM:

Vidar, if you think talking like this is 'wrong' then don't post and go to your 'true believers' forum. In my post above I have just been 'denigrating' a large, expensive digital flatscreen and saying how I prefer my mixed bag including the two top-of-the-range Elmo projectors - both purchased in the last few years and costing me thousands, incidentally, such is my commitment to film. If this still seems like 'wrongful' discussion, then unless it is a language barrier you have a very odd axe to grind. Any mention of anything digital, even saying digital is not as good, is still unacceptable.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on August 25, 2015, 09:14 AM:

Okay, will obey. Consider changing title to Movie forum, cause that's what it is. Take care

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2015, 09:16 AM:

I don't think anyone would ever question your outstanding dedication to film Steven.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2015, 09:19 AM:

So, to summarize:

We have a diversity of opinion among the membership:

More video, less video. One clown years back wanted all video, and some seem to want "none".

How do you make everybody happy?

You don't!

You have compromise so everybody is equally unhappy (-at least on average).

-compromise sucks, but it is fair!

So no video section, no banning video discussion either.

Yak On!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on August 25, 2015, 09:29 AM:

Steve

You have no chance of being Donald Trump's running mate with a statement like that [Razz]

Mike

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on August 25, 2015, 10:38 AM:

Thanks for the compliment, Andrew...

Vidar, I just don't understand his position. He seems to want to be offended.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on August 25, 2015, 10:48 AM:

I am not sure I understand the anti-digital stance. I don't have a digital projector, I only project film but I have a large collection of VHS/DVD/laserdisc that I watch on a television. I'm not really interested in a digital projector but I don't mind the digital disscussions. Time moves on and tech changes...it is what it is. Like Andrew said I like just projecting film to keep it a seperate event, makes it more special. Being so rigid about "film" is not going to help the hobby into the future I don't think it will only make it dwindle. Steve, your right you can't make everyone happy....

Bill [Smile]

Posted by Mark Silvester (Member # 929) on August 25, 2015, 12:53 PM:

Good points Bill and Steve,

it will always be difficult - but I think a pretty good job is achieved here generally and in a mature way too.

Mark
[Smile]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 25, 2015, 01:18 PM:

Digital blu ray projection has brought an incredible standard of picture and sound quality and superb movie entertainment that I never expected to experience in my home cinema. There is no way I would part with my digital projector. To paraphrase ex NRA Charlton Heston ' You will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands"!
And I agree with Steve that there is no comparison between digital projection in a dark room and a large flat panel display.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on August 25, 2015, 01:53 PM:

Vidar, I love film.

I love maintaining my super 8 and 16mm equipment and films, and always value the opinion of like minded collectors, so please don't ever leave the forum as we all value the experience and attitude of "real" film collectors here.

That said, in the next few months, we are going to see the launch of UHD for consumer use, and all the ups and downs that will go with any new format.

Already, cinema digital projection has moved to DCI specification, with which DOP's were also involved (celluloid or digital capture...and by the way, there is a lot to be said about the Arri Alexa when it comes to capturing dark scenes).

Domestic stuff doesn't comply to cinema DCI. So you simply can't see the best cinema digital presentation at home, or for that matter, the best current DOP's work. Fact. (When I say the best cinema presentation, I know many theatrical digital presentations are inferior!)

In other words, this is an evolving technology, as motion picture celluloid always was.

Domestic displays are on the verge of new UHD content and panels, but more importantly larger contrast options and larger colour range...specs which are currently exciting, but all over the place!!!

How this will affect domestic projection is yet to be seen, but the fact is that the industry is moving toward better image quality.

There will always be inferior, more affordable displays that let the side down.

You just have to compare it to the best..."film"...demand more, make good judgements on current tech and push the industry to give us what we want...good quality images.

That is why we all here, with our solid understanding and appreciation of film, we are in such a good position to criticise and make things better!

I really can't project, say, my old beloved Universal 8 of "Battlestar Galactica" with it's PURPLE cylons to an audience anymore, but I'm damned if any modern tech pretends to make it look better and doesn't! Yes, the Blu-ray is awesome with my JVC D-ILA projector, but the motion blur is still better and more comfortable from film.

C'mon, we're a force to reckoned with us lot!!!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on August 25, 2015, 01:58 PM:

I think there is room for all types of projection on this forum in the current format that it is displayed I don't as most collectors see it as a issue.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on August 25, 2015, 02:17 PM:

I agree, I think the nice thing here is that we have experienced the best, so we have the most well judged opinions when it comes to new formats.

But I also think we're a bunch of old friends here to some degree, and wouldn't want anyone to move to a different table in the pub, just because we may express preference for a different football team!!!

[Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2015, 02:21 PM:

I simply adore reading Robs posts filling us all in and keeping us all up to speed with the latest technological advancements and all the jargon that duly comes with it!

Make sure you yourself never leave this forum Mr Young and leave us all behind in the 21st Century Cinema world! [Smile]

Your knowledge is truly second to none.

Posted by Mark Silvester (Member # 929) on August 25, 2015, 02:24 PM:

Rob..Mike

absolutely AMEN to that!! [Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2015, 02:27 PM:

I will second those comments also. Well said chaps, even if either of you are a Utd fan! Grrrr [Big Grin]

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