This is topic Anyone projected 4K upscaled Blue Ray etc in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 23, 2016, 12:39 PM:
Hi I just wondered if anyone had projected 4K or 4K upscaled Blu Ray.
Any thoughts etc.
Best Mark.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 23, 2016, 01:52 PM:
Mark, personally I'm holding out on 4K for now; not because it isn't potentially much better in terms of definition and colour gamut, but because one of the major potential advantages of new 4K displays (be they panels or projectors) and mastering, is High Dynamic Range.
Now at the moment, most displays and mastering conform to HDR 10, which, quite frankly, I think is a mistake, or a missed opportunity at best.
Nit figures aside, both HDR 10 and Dolby Vision conform to SMPTE ST-2084, but HDR works in 10 bit, whereas Dolby Vison was designed to work in 12 bit.
HDR 10 produces artifacts and such puts a bit of a damper on the whole 4K or UHD launch.
One can only hope that 12 bit Dolby Vision quickly becomes the standard and then 4K becomes tempting.
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 23, 2016, 02:48 PM:
You lost me on a technicality from paragraph 2 of your reply to Mark there Rob, but I am personally sticking with 1080p and Bluray as I have no wish to have to buy all those disks all over again no matter what the implied increase in quality is - for me it is one format change too many and my methods of watching digital HD at home (42" HDTV and 7 foot wide HD LCD projection) will do me fine.
Kevin
[ October 27, 2016, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Kevin Clark ]
Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on October 23, 2016, 02:55 PM:
I have to say, at the size and distance I'm able to view things 4K currently isn't for me. I don't think I'd see enough of a difference on a 40" screen which is what we have in the lounge, or a 8ft projected image. And HDR also fails to pique my interest unfortunately. God, i've finally reached the end of the upgrade road! If only my 30 year old self could hear me now!
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 23, 2016, 03:22 PM:
I find \Blu Ray absolutely enough for myself. Still like good dvd too.
I do find some upscaled dvd can be really nice through a HD panel so was thinking what an upscaled BR through the same would be like.
I could do with a new blu ray player and I see you can get 4K Blu Ray upsclaling ones quite cheaply now.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 23, 2016, 11:44 PM:
Unless you are buying a 4k dedicated H.C. projector on the same day Mark, I doubt you'd gain anything.
Ultimately of course, any upscaled media is to allow the user to take advantage of the newer higher resolution display equipment from older generation media, with some success.
Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on October 24, 2016, 03:15 AM:
Every time I pop into curry's - i always wander up to the TV's and see whats on offer - i find the displays to be quite conflicting in what they screen - you have the usual designated 4k demonstration display and then you have stuff that is broadcast - and some of those images look rather articial - as i found myself looking at the images - the uneven make-up on the actors etc - which would make me think that i'd be concentrating on looking at these things than the actual programme. As it stands - my 50 inch full HD plasma is still going strong with excellent images and my 2 LCD projectors do the job i need .
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 24, 2016, 05:11 AM:
Mark, as Andrew says, you need a 4K display before trying to upscale standard Blu-ray to 4K.
Also, like upscaling DVD, there are various upscaling technologies (built into either player or display) to upscale standard Blu-ray to 4K and some are better than others. Actually, there are some stand alone upscaling processors which do a much better job, although they come at a price.
Unfortunately, like Blu-ray before it, 4K is rather marketed badly. Most of the emphasis with Blu-ray was that it was simply better definition than DVD and many wondered if they really needed that - the reality of course is that a well mastered Blu-ray has a multitude of improvements over DVD (less compression, better sound, better colour) which wasn't always made clear to potential buyers.
Same is true with UHD - as a format it obviously offers better definition, but, again, the colour gamut can be considerably better than Blu-ray and when HDR settles down, it potentially will provide the best viewing experience we have ever been able to see domestically ie, the best TVs and video projectors...ever.
But, as usual, it's launch hasn't been the best, with the whole HDR mess...making HDR 10 standard the first mistake.
Also, different display technologies make standardization difficult. OLED, for example, which was potentially the next big display technology hasn't quite lived up to expectations, and struggles to provide the high levels of brightness (or nit level) for really great HDR.
And projectors which claim to offer HDR really don't have the required brightness levels...hopefully laser light sources will eventually sort that out though.
Long and short...4K is still a bit of a mine field but will undoubtedly be the future of TV.
Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on October 24, 2016, 11:45 AM:
I expect it will be 8k in a year or two!! Cannot see the point of it all really! I haven'nt even upgraded to Bluray and still run VHS through my Epson projector. I am not looking to count the skin blemishes on the actors faces or see the fine details and scratches in the props. I think you would need a massive screen to really notice the difference. The difference between HD and standard on my 32inch TV is hardly noticeable. Do we enjoy a film less if it was made before Dolby Surround ? I liken it to the "Rivet counters" of model railway enthusiasts. It is the performance that matters. Ken Finch. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Martin Davey (Member # 2841) on October 24, 2016, 12:30 PM:
I got a digital HD LCD projector and a screen in the summer of 2015. The screen is 7ft across and the viewing distance is 8 foot. It is incredible. It is the best piece of technology I have got for many years. Even some DVDs if they have been mastered well, look perfectly watchable. One day we will all have 4k of some sort, it is only a matter of time. It is difficult to go out and buy a non HD screen nowadays!
When I watch Blu rays I am always very satisfied with the result, plus a properly balance surround system does help a lot too with the presentation. I just feel that I am in a cinema, with out an annoying audience! In a real cinema I always enjoyed 'scope films but at home I do prefer films that meet the 16x 9 format. I never watch any films on the 37” TV since installing this, just normal TV programmes. Even the old silent films and British Transport films just work so much better when viewed at this size. It's fun observing the actors in the background seeing how well they are doing their job. I found I could see the 'rainbow' effect with DLP so went LCD.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 24, 2016, 01:20 PM:
Ultimately, Ken, it is just about enjoying the escapism of the movie.
And if your set up provides you with that, then that's perfect!
But when better quality presentation enhances that experience...well I think many of us enjoy that also.
Never technologically just for the sake of it.
That leads to awful things like music reproduction using MP3. Lol! 🙂
Martin, I agree that Blu-ray and HD projection at home has given us the best way yet to appreciate the many skills of the talented folk involved in film making over the decades in a domestic environment.
And this only adds to the enjoyment!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 24, 2016, 03:23 PM:
On a 32" TV Ken, the difference between full HD Blu Ray or DVD presentation would hardly be noticeable, Put that image up on a 10ft screen, then you begin to realise how drastic the differences really are!
It will be the same again from full HD to 4k, then to 10k etc etc.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 24, 2016, 04:29 PM:
Also, let's not forget that whatever ends up on any form of exhibition is ideally the ideal choice of the film maker ("movie" maker), cinematographer, set designer, production designer, costume designer, musical composer, sound effects designer, sound mixer, etc...etc...etc.
Better quality presentation simply presents the best form of exhibition to all of these crafted people and enhances the experience.
I see that the "Cinema Home Choice" article on super 8 has been discussed on the Real Magic forum and applaud the whole advocate of this on going hobby, and celluloid presentation at home...my goodness, I'm one of it's biggest fans.
But in this day and age, if we want to watch a recent cinema (videma) release at home, we have to accept certain critera.
That doesn't mean seeing every skin blemish (I only make TV, so what do I know, but I frequently use, for example a 1/4 black promist filter when shooting CU interviews in HD just to avoid this very unflattering approach).
Point is, the drive here isn't simply for more definition, that's somewhat missing the point of this evolution as artistic approach to photography always remains, but that better formats give it more options.
Personally, I've seen movies both new and classic over the last few years, presented on Blu-ray, such that I have so much more respect and admiration for the people that made them.
I doubt that I would ever have been able to admire such craft when presented on lesser formats, other than running 35mm at home, and that this has considerably enhanced my enjoyment of such movies at home.
I think that striving for better quality presentation simply elevates any art form and that given the multitude of artist involved in making a "movie", nothing is more true than when watching one in the highest quality available.
Posted by Daniel Macarone (Member # 5102) on October 24, 2016, 09:36 PM:
Ken - I still watch VHS, too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on October 25, 2016, 10:03 AM:
Absolutely agree with Rob. Thanks to today's technology, I view the ability to screen movies in my home cinema with such stunning picture and sound quality as the culmination of my 45 years of film collecting -- during which I was always seeking to attain such quality.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 25, 2016, 10:12 AM:
Take a look at the Aladdin screenshots over on the the other place John.
These better in many ways my HD projected presentation using a reasonably standard DVD player with the DVD of this movie.
Yes the Blu Ray can beat it just, of course... but still somewhat remarkable that a tiny Super 8mm frame on a 10ft screen can look this good!!
Not bad for 50yr old technology and a 22yr old print I'd say! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
There is still a huge argument for the very best of both worlds, and of course, the reason why we are still all on here!
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on October 25, 2016, 10:26 AM:
Thanks Andrew -- I'm not knocking Super 8, but as we all know, print consistency just isn't there across the same titles, and can vary widely -- something that today's technology easily mitigates.
Again, I've been collecting films for 45 years, and very much know that quality for one or a handful of titles isn't representative across the entire range. Print consistency isn't a hallmark of film collecting.
Posted by Del Phillipson (Member # 513) on October 25, 2016, 10:34 AM:
At some point you have to draw the line. I'm more than happy with the set up I have. I have looked at the 4k projectors but thought wait a while and they will come down in price, while I'm waiting, news of the imminent arrival of 8k is here, you cannot keep buying disc after disc after disc just to keep up with technology, I did that in the noughties paying a fortune for my dvd's, now look, they are worthless and I bet there are some I haven't even watched yet. Just be content with what you have.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 25, 2016, 10:37 AM:
Agreed John but on nearly all the later stuff from Derann (85 onwards),you'd be very unlucky to find a bad film of poor print quality unless a white box special of course.
Same can be said of many many others from this era from Germany and the U.S.
Far more than a handful John, that's for sure!
It's only the old faded stuff that tends to be from inferior master material, printed to a budget and can also be very grainy on inferior earlier stock, I find.
Equally, I've had some and seen some very poor DVD transfers at times, especially in the early days of this technology surfacing and many made from older and in some cases, worn inferior master material, just the same as film often could be.
The thing that winds my dial out of screening any disc, is the time it takes you to get to the movie itself.
Often you are forced to watch trailers, adverts and make choices to your viewing preferences in the main menu that can take an age to navigate at times.
I usually shout the wife in to the watch the movie about 20 minutes after I've put the disc in just so the beginning of the film can be got at and paused.
She hates trailers and padding.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 25, 2016, 11:31 AM:
Yes, just to be clear, I'd never knock the capabilities of super 8 and still run film as often as possible.
In reality, DVD, whilst a massive improvement on VHS, was far from perfect really and super 8 prints like the best Disneys still provided a better viewing experience.
Blu-ray is when things began to change.
That said, I have certain super 8 titles that whilst arguably look and certainly sound better in HD, I still love to screen and wouldn't ever part with.
And 8K isn't imminent. Not even realistically coming soon.
Still too many issues to sort out with 4K!!
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on October 25, 2016, 11:35 AM:
Agree regarding your comments about the quality of earlier DVDs, Andrew -- that's why I waited until the technology advanced (that is, picture and sound quality-wise) to the point that it warranted building a home theatre.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on October 25, 2016, 12:44 PM:
Goodevening,
I am particularly interested in this TIP as I have not invested yet in a Videoprojector.
Prices & Performances look attractive (Xenon Light Power, Colours Correcting, Upscaling.......) and Quality / Price rate is competitive.
I think BluRay system is enough at this time.
It should be interesting to make a direct comparison between materials available (BLURAY vs S8 for a same title made from the same negative source....)
Is the Upscaling 100% efficient?
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 25, 2016, 02:10 PM:
Phil, Blu-ray is the format to go for currently - the range of titles available at sensible prices and the outstanding quality make it the perfect format for movie lovers, and it is no longer that expensive to buy a quality player.
Projector wise, I'd suggest setting yourself a budget and then getting demonstrations of what is available before deciding - it doesn't matter how good a review is, only seeing the image for yourself will be important.
That said, you will need a full HD 1080p 24Hz capable projector to take full advantage of Blu-ray.
Most projectors are, but some cheaper models aren't quite up to the job.
Technology wise, you have LCD projectors (such as the Panasonic range, which are excellent), or DLP based machines, which arguably have better motion and contrast, but, in the case of single chip DLP machines, can suffer form irritating "rainbow" effect - look around the internet for more information.
Slightly more expensive, you have the LCOS system which both Sony and JVC projectors use.
Personally, I think JVC LCOS (or D-ILA) as they call it, is the best domestic projection image available.
But, it is about budget and expectation, so my advice is do a lot of internet research on the differing technologies and always, always find a good retailer who can give you a good range of demonstrations.
In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone else advises, so long as you are happy with the results.
PS - Just for anyone interested and not intended in any way as self promotion, but I recently shot this and used a lot of promist filtration to take the "edge" off HD while shooting - just thought it may demonstrates that definition doesn't always rule over stylistic choice.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0801p64/books-that-made-britain-north-west-england
[ October 25, 2016, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Rob Young. ]
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on October 26, 2016, 09:47 AM:
Hi Rob,
Thanks for all these informations.
I keep an eye on that !!!
Posted by Del Phillipson (Member # 513) on October 26, 2016, 10:53 AM:
There you go Rob, don't shoot the messenger :-)
Sharp has announced plans to sell an 8K television screen from October.
Although several companies have developed "super hi-vision" resolution test models, this is the first such TV to be made commercially available.
The 8K format provides 16 times as many pixels as 1080p high definition. It creates an image so detailed that it can appear three-dimensional.
However, the 85in (2.16m) device's 16m yen ($133,000; £86,000) price is likely to limit sales.
Interest is expected to come mainly from broadcasters and other companies involved in testing the format.
Sharp is promoting the 8K TV on its website and will show it to the public soon
One analyst suggested it would not become a serious proposition for members of the public until the turn of the decade.
"We're not expecting 8K TVs targeted at consumers to be released until at least 2016, and we don't expect they will cross one million units until after 2019," said Abhi Mallick, from IHS Technology.
"Japan's NHK is the only broadcaster so far to announce plans to create and broadcast 8K content."
But he added that the relatively small size of people's homes in Japan might mean many families would not be interested.
"Japan's a region in which the average size of TVs sold tends to be smaller, and we think the minimum size 8K TVs would be sold at would be 65in."
He added that for the time being, he expected manufacturers to focus their efforts on trying to convince families to buy 4K sets instead.
They provide a quarter of the resolution of 8K, but are being made in sizes of up to about 100in to create "cinema-like" experiences in the home.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on October 26, 2016, 04:37 PM:
I'm waiting for 16k...
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 26, 2016, 05:08 PM:
Del, what I meant was that 8K isn't coming soon on a domestic level, as your quotes support, but admit that wasn't quite ckear.
Very much aware of NHK and its development of 8K
I suppose what I meant was don't be afraid of 4K as being something that will be instantly superceeded as it will be around and develop for many years yet.
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 27, 2016, 01:03 AM:
I'm looking forward to my December optical and hearing tests as they will no doubt yet again confirm I only have analogue version 2.0 ears and 2k resolution eyes which will save me a fortune on unnecessary future digital home cinema upgrades.
BTW: Does a crap movie become a great movie the higher the resolution it is shown in?
Kevin
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on October 27, 2016, 01:52 AM:
I just look on the higher resolution of the display showing less of the actual pixels on a large screen. Remember the "Chicken wire" effect of early LCD projectors?
AT present the 4K displays in shops seem to be showing demonstration scenes that look as good as the same sort of scenes shown when HD came in, slow moving traffic in panoramic vistas. Of course when you get to real action motion blur takes most of that away, as it does in real life. I won't hurry to upgrade.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 27, 2016, 02:37 AM:
Well, as discussed, 4K isn't all about resolution.
Is a crap movie better in 4K?
Hmm...
Maybe an alternative question might be why not aspire to see a great movie in the best quality possible?
Anyway, I'm outta here on this one folks...
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 27, 2016, 02:41 AM:
I think my negativity towards the newest digital display toys stems from spending a fortune as an early uptaker on just about every new format over the years. I was projecting via DVD in the mid 90's via a £2000 (then) LCD projector which - when fitted with a UV filter and slightly de-focussed to reduce screendoor just about produced a watchable colour or grey and white (never black) image. Umpteen changes of video projector, HDDVD, Bluray players, etc. and many £1000's later now I really don't want to bother making the movie studios and equipment developers richer by buying into the latest must have wheeze.
Even so called broadcast HD TV is a farce - via Freeview HD all the signals received are only 720p (1080i) so here we are in 2016 and they are only just HD Ready let alone 4k plus. This will surely look even worse by the time an upscaling chip has mutilated the signal even further to fit the 4k screen.
You are right Rob, yes I certainly do aspire to see a great movie in the best possible quality - I will be screening some 35mm at home this weekend.
Kevin
Posted by Del Phillipson (Member # 513) on October 27, 2016, 07:47 AM:
No probs Rob, crossed wires
Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on October 27, 2016, 10:12 AM:
There is a bit of a paradox with all this Hi-res malarkey.
If you "upgrade" (ahem !) to 4k on say a 42 inch TV and have always viewed your TV from the same distance X you may not see any real improvement unless you happen to sit closer to the screen.
So insofar as TVs go it means you can sit closer to your set
and see less artifacts when compared with standard Hi-Def TVs.
Of course you will see more detail.
However sit a lot farther back from distance X from your set and
the so-called upgrade negates itself.
In short there is no real perceivable advantage in having gone 4k unless you sit closer to your screen.
So you really need to upgrade to a much larger screen to gain
any real significant advantage from 4k.
Best to view such stuff via a good quality Video Projector on as
large a screen as you can in your "Home Cinema " set-up.
In order to get full benefit of 4k or even Blu-Ray discs.
Well that's my findings anyway.
The thing is ENJOY !!!
Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on October 27, 2016, 10:55 AM:
Wholeheartedly agree with David -- "the thing is ENJOY!!" Life is way too short for teeth-gnashing about the march of progress.
Watching IT'S ALWAYS FAIR WEATHER last weekend in my home cinema, I never would've thought in my 45 years of film collecting that I could attain such stunning picture and sound quality that today's technology affords.
Not sure why that's considered such a bad thing in some circles .... ?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 27, 2016, 11:41 AM:
I agree entirely with both of these last statements from John and David here.
And let it be said also, that even some 720p projectors like what Graham here has demonstrated here before now, can produce some gloriously sharp and beautiful images from a Blu Ray disc without even having the full native resolution panels in order to do so.
Blu Ray simply produces breathtakingly stunning images even on modest home cinema dedicated projected displays of a reasonable quality.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 27, 2016, 11:49 AM:
Ok, this is the last I'm saying on this, but clearly little of what I've written has been considered.
For one final time, 4K is NOT simply about increased resolution...
Kevin, I too wasted a load of hard earned cash over the years on various video projectors, most of which weren't so good.
Anyway, non of this is worth falling out over...it's all just a hobby and we're all here to enjoy our movies in whatever format makes us happy.
Right, that said..I'm off now to run a Halloween film show...on super 8! For real!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 27, 2016, 12:03 PM:
Brilliant Rob, just brilliant!
What titles are you thinking of running may I ask?
Posted by Del Phillipson (Member # 513) on October 27, 2016, 12:39 PM:
Rob, you and me both, I once spent £2,000.00 on a video projector and ended up selling it for £50.00, technology can kill you. The one I have now is brilliant and to be honest I can see me keeping it for donkey's years, the picture is unbelievable.
Off now, it's Thursday night film night and the GS is calling me ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 27, 2016, 08:49 PM:
What blu ray discs, and today's home digital projectors have done, is to make the home cinema as good as, or perhaps even better than the professional cinema. That is something that has never before been possible, unless you have a 35mm set up in your house.
When I was a youngster I dreamed of being able to project motion pictures in my house, and my first projector, the lowly Pathescope Ace, was literally a dream come true in Christmas 1954. Then I dreamed of sound movies, but sound projection was totally out of reach until 1975 when I purchased a Eumig S802. Another dream come true. For the next 20 years I enjoyed showing 20 minute digests and shorts, and then started buying a few of my very favourite feature films, some even in CinemaScope. I thought that was as good as it would get. Then in 2004 I borrowed an LCD digital projector and showed a DVD of Casablanca on a 6 ft screen and it blew me away. That experience has evolved into high definition Blu ray projection on a 10ft wide screen, and a picture and sound quality that I never could have imagined being possible for a home cinema.
4K projection is something I might look at in a couple of years when it has matured, but I very much doubt that it will offer a quantum leap in picture quality comparable to Blu Ray versus DVD.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 28, 2016, 04:11 AM:
I totally agree Paul and as you say,we have all been very fortunate to have arrived where we have today and all lived in the era to witness such remarkable progress within the home cinema arena!
I wonder what Derek Simmonds would have made of today's standards of digital projected imagery?
I often wonder if he would still had bothered trying to compete with it had he had been born just a few years later?
Something we will never know, but just out of his shear love of film, it's something I'd like to think that he would have done, just for old times sake for us aging old romantics! 😀😀
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 28, 2016, 08:17 AM:
Andrew, I have a feeling that Derek would still be producing some 8mm prints, albeit on a much smaller scale than previously. Derek just loved 8mm and I think he would still be having his open houses and Blackpool convention.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 28, 2016, 09:09 AM:
I'm glad you said that Paul.
That's the way I like to imagine things would have turned out had he had been given a little longer with us all
Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on October 29, 2016, 03:05 PM:
Further to my earlier comments, there is one aspect that nobody seems to have mentioned important to film collectors. There were many films issued on VHS and DVD that have not been upgraded and released on BLU ray. Many old films are still appearing on standard DVDs but not on Blu ray. I certainly agree about the comments regarding viewing distances. I am old enough to remember noticing the grain of some prints in some old cinemas (Flea Pits} if unfortunate enough to have to sit in the front row of the Stalls. I will not be upgrading further either, not only because of cost but also as someone else has mentioned, my eyes and ears are no longer as good as they used to be. Unfortunately bits of me are starting to wear!! Ken Finch.
Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on November 01, 2016, 05:30 AM:
Ken... I second you on that one regarding aging eyesite.
Yes viewing distance is most certainly a vital factor when judging image detail on a screen.
I learned this during my 1st year training as an apprentice Cinema Projectionist away back in the days when such people
as myself existed to operate the equipment and put on a film
presentation.
We were "showmen" then.
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