8mm Forum: Well, THIS person has a low opinion of super 8!

This is topic Well, THIS person has a low opinion of super 8! in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 06, 2017, 12:06 PM:

look at this auction ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JERRY-LEWIS-is-THE-BIG-MOUTH-Never-Released-Rare-Super-8-Print-color-sound-400ft-/182454110422?hash=item2a7b1cc8d6:g:0T0AAOSwax5YrfnG

Down below in the description, he states, "All Super 8 fades", and then explains further.

Apparantly, he's never heard of Agfa, L.P.P. and, in most cases Fiji film (well, none of my fuji prints have faded yet).

Posted by Marshall Crist (Member # 1312) on March 06, 2017, 12:20 PM:

Unfortunately, I am the reason for the disclaimer. I purchased a U8 digest of THIS ISLAND EARTH from him, described as having good color. I could see that there were already a couple of other buyers watching the item, and it had a reasonable buy-it-now price, so I rolled the dice. The color was pretty bad, so I returned it. He sent a message saying that unfortunately, all these Super 8 films fade. I did not engage.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 06, 2017, 12:28 PM:

Ahhh ...

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on March 06, 2017, 12:46 PM:

I showed a Blackhawk 'Rascals in front of my son's Cub pack a few years ago. The Scoutmaster introduced me with a "faded and scratched" announcement.

-am I ever glad I chose one of my best Blackhawk prints that night!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 06, 2017, 01:21 PM:

He's not wrong Marshall, although I suspect he won't be around to see the LPP ones fade!,😁😁😁

Just like I won't and maybe our kids won't hopefully!!

Many may have another 70 or 80 years left if kept in ideal conditions. Maybe even longer, who knows?

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 06, 2017, 02:07 PM:

Not to mention B&W films on silver particle (not dye based) stock. How long does it take them to fade?

Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on March 06, 2017, 02:46 PM:

Because in B&W films, negatives and photo's the image is made out of silver-halide particles and no dyes are involved, the image cannot fade.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 06, 2017, 03:06 PM:

That's what I meant.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 07, 2017, 12:07 PM:

The funny thing is ...

... i've had more of a problem with "disinegration' with black and white film than color. Yeah, some prints color fades over time, but the black and white film stock will actually fall apart or even get that strange "spotting" (I don't know what it's called, but it's a slightly bronze "growth" on the film ... little dots).

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 07, 2017, 02:02 PM:

I imagine that's due to inadequate fixing or rinsing of the film in the labs.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on March 07, 2017, 03:03 PM:

Pure Black and White film stock.
Mmmmmmmmm !!! Lovely.

You should see Black and White on "nitrate" stock dangerous to
run but absolutely wonderful.

I think I still have some somewhere among my 35mm films.
That's whats worrying me. I have misplaced it.
Perhaps a fire waiting to happen.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 07, 2017, 04:36 PM:

Blimy this guy certainly doesnt know about super 8. This film has been on 8 for years, here is my review on this very forum, look at the colours in my print.
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000581

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 07, 2017, 05:09 PM:

I believe the color of this print had been like Tom's since the beginning.

Only at that time film was being sold (circa 1970s) this type of colors was a norm, so we did not have any problem with it.

Today, we are trained time by time with picture quality and we are now kind of an expert. Therefore, our eyes will say that this type of color is the fading ones.

This type of phenomenon happens many times with sound, picture and color quality.

I do really remember when the Super VHS was introduced in an exhibition and I said to myself that was the ultimate quality that people could get.

Then we got Laser Disc, DVD, and now BluRay.

With my habit to watch BlurRay, when I return to this SVHS, I talk to myself.....

what sort of picture quality is this!

[Wink]

So it is just like that!

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on March 08, 2017, 03:39 AM:

I think all we collectors who bought any print of any film on 8mm
should be getting our money back.
After all we did buy them for life not expecting them to fade.
Its a pity that the distributors are no longer with us as I for one would be making a lot of phone calls and writing a lot of
letters to them complaining demanding a refund.

We were 'duped' as they knew they would fade over time when they sold them to us on the film stocks used for printing them.

WHAT A SCAM !!! [Mad]

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 08, 2017, 04:18 AM:

If only LPP went back 5 years further, all those lovely digest`s etc and would have kept prices sensible as well .

Best Mark.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 09:04 AM:

Bloody Nora David, if you'd like a refund for all your Super8, God help anyone who ever sold you a VHS Video Cassette.

Nowadays a DVD, in 10 years time maximum!

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on March 08, 2017, 11:19 AM:

Cor blimey Andrew.

I would only want a refund for all my faded prints.
All my VHS has been binned because they were cheaper and
not worth the tape they were recorded on.

Either way we were had ... BIGTIME !!! [Wink]

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 04:30 PM:

Can we start a class action for refunds I would like to have my viewing time back as well I watched either crap movies The Rose 20 minutes Hawk the Slayer 90 minutes soft print plus many others.

All in all can I have 12 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours and 17 minutes plus £12.56 for the petrol going to watch crud films in other home cinemas.

I'll let you off all the thermofilm because I think the second penis is handy and glowing in the dark is fun.

I'd just like to say Santa Claus 🎅🏾Santa Claus 🎅🏾Santa Claus only 9 months to go

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 04:35 PM:

We were never "had" David. Some simply want things way beyond what is technically possible given their time period of release.

If you have even a modicum of "feel" for this aspect of life,

There are no complaints!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 04:40 PM:

I was had. I only bought The Rose because I was promised rock n roll and sex got Bette Midler singing still traumatised 😥😥😥

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 04:42 PM:

Should have looked at IMBD of the day Micheal. [Big Grin]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on March 08, 2017, 04:44 PM:

Look folks nothing last forever certainly we dont, so why worry [Roll Eyes]

you got pleasure out of those films at the time and for many we still do. I would never think of fading prints along the lines that I have been "had" after all look how many years its taken for them to get to that stage.

Films are not a $$$$$ investment, any one thinking along those lines is crazy, enjoy them while you can.. you cant take them when you go, after all there are still lot of films that have not faded...I have heaps...enjoy [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 04:47 PM:

Well said Graham and I'm certain the people spending over £1000 on Star Wars etc, feel exactly the same.

It's merely a calculated 10 year investment and a good one at that if you love film and these type of films!

Good on you I say!!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 04:48 PM:

There wasn't an Internet then Andy. All we had was Page 3, Benny Hill Show and Pans People.👀👀👀👀

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 04:50 PM:

Loved Pans People but even back then, there was still a way to research the film "The Robe".

I knew even back then, it was never one I ever desired!😁😁

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 05:17 PM:

The Robe had big tits unfortunately they were attached to Victor Mature

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 05:25 PM:

Not the same somehow! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 05:30 PM:

Well at least he shaved.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 05:33 PM:

So do I! 😁😁😁

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 06:03 PM:

Every day and when I'm finished I can start all over again. Yet on my head I am rerunning the Alamo. A few die every day but we will survive.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 06:07 PM:

You've now well and truly lost me and most of your audience no doubt Micheal!

A pint of what you're on mate!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 08, 2017, 06:16 PM:

I think Spice is the chosen tipple for some guaranteed to knock you out for 24 hours particularly popular in Wrexham . I'm not talking Old Spice either.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 08, 2017, 06:23 PM:

???????

We will leave it there eh Mike! [Confused]

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on March 09, 2017, 11:45 AM:

Andrew we were "had" in the sense that I wanted to enjoy
the film with all colours intact for my lifetime.
Not the life of the film.

In fact some of the advertising hype at the time was
something like ... " Buy and enjoy this film for life in
sparkling Technicolor. "

Oh yea ? Well a half truth claim as far as I am concerned.

THEY knew the prints would fade in time but they never claimed
that in the adverts.

After all it was common knowledge at the time in the industry
that using certain film stocks would fade in time.
Yet the distributors continued printing on the stocks that
would fade while charging ludicrous inflated rip off prices.

[Wink]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 09, 2017, 12:12 PM:

I've always wondered about just how much super 8 providers knew about color fade. Now, insiders within the film lab industry obviously knew about eastman fade, (they found that even by the early 60's, eastman was already starting to look "iffy"), and i'm betting that no one, including collectors had any idea that the films they were buying would fade so quickly ...

hence, the storing of them in warm environments.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on March 09, 2017, 12:31 PM:

Yes Osi industry insiders did know about film fade.
There was even a warning about it printed in an article
in the now defunct original Movie Maker magazine.
Stephen Spielberg and Martin Scorsese were among those
pointing out the dangers of it and that it should be prevented before it was to late. Some listened others did not.

Movie Maker even warned that our 8mm package movies were
in danger of fading in time.
It was around then I stopped buying new prints unless they
were on low fade stocks.

A great injustice was done to monochrome prints by printing
them on colour stocks that were prone to fade.
This included 35mm and 16mm and even 70mm as we now know.

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on March 09, 2017, 05:35 PM:

I can't remember the name of the comic but one of his routines talked about his aging father.

Being a good and caring son, he tried to visit his father frequently and help him out with tasks whenever he could. So one day he stopped by his farther's house whereupon his father handed him a 30 year old broken toilet seat and a receipt.

"Take this back the hardware store and get a refund. It's got a lifetime warranty and the POS broke."

To be clear, I'm not trying to draw a comparison between toilet seats and Super 8!

What I am saying is that a lifetime warranty is not a guarantee that something will literally last a lifetime. It is a calculation by the manufacturer that quality is good enough and the frequency of valid claims low enough that it's worth their while to make such a warranty.

And they will put stipulations in the warranty to tilt things in their favor: Must be the original owner. Damage must not be the result of improper use or care. Must provide proof of purchase, etc.

Going back to the toilet seat example, the manufacturer knew that toilet seat didn't need to last anywhere near a lifetime. A given toilet seat of reasonable quality would likely be replaced well before it broke, or the owner would move to another home leaving the toilet seat behind. And even if one did break, the likelihood of someone actually saving the receipt and returning it was exceptionally small unless it broke within a few weeks or months.

So yes, the Super 8 packaging industry knew that their films would not last a lifetime. They only had to last long enough that the owner gave it to somebody else, lost the receipt, or just lost interest and threw it away.

So the term "lifetime" gets watered down to mean: "longer than most people would care enough to bother"

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 09, 2017, 05:50 PM:

And already 30 plus years into their existence, I don't believe anyone can claim they haven't had their money's worth!

Certainly I will never complain on this front anyhow.
I'd be more inclined to try and sue the companies that created machines that destroyed perfectly decent and relatively new prints well before the time they should ever had needed a major overhaul!

That's a far bigger issue worthy of complaint in my book and we ain't talking thousands of miles on the clock here with this issue! [Mad]

Posted by Patrick Feuerstein (Member # 5293) on March 10, 2017, 04:00 AM:

The problem is the same for 70mm, 35mm and 16mm. It's always possible to make new prints from the neg if it's not damaged. The fact is that collectors want to see their collection (including me! but I changed) and keep their films in their flat. The temperature is generally about 20° centigrade or more. It's too much, the best is near 13°. Another point, did the delivery truck(s) stayed under the sun too long? How was the storage before you ordered you film? I bought a lot of films during the 80's and the colors a perfect (better than the DVD i.e. the "Barkley's of Broadway" from Ken). In fact I had a few turning colors specially prints from Italy (probably problem of storage) even a vinegar! The brown plot on B/W print is called oxydizing and is due, in fact, by a defective fixing treatment at the lab. I've a friend who bought a brand new print from Derann with that fault. I even had a reversal movie which the emulsion left when we rubbed with the finger!

Patrick
Former film archivist-restorer (ret.)

[ March 10, 2017, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Patrick Feuerstein ]

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on March 10, 2017, 08:20 AM:

I have a complete print of The Smallest Show On Earth from
Derann on Super 8mm.

Its on Black and White stock and suffer from those oxidization spots.
I keep it as a sample of how bad it gets.

I also have another of the same title from Derann.
It was printed on colour stock and the Black and White has turned
a sepia tone and looks a lot softer. I keep it as a sample.

I also have it on 16mm Black and White stock and apart from some
scratches it looks fine. No oxidization at all. [Smile]

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