8mm Forum: Is vinegar syndrome an issue with your collection?

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Posted by Daniel D. Teoli Jr. (Member # 6043) on August 25, 2017, 10:12 AM:

I've a got a few reels of 1930 16mm that has vinegar problems. My 8mm seems to be OK for the most part. But I have noticed a few reels with shrunken or warped few feet after the leader.

Is vinegar syndrome an issue with your collection?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2017, 10:20 AM:

For the most part commercially produced S8 is printed on polyester stock, so it's immune to VS. Gary Brockelhurst at Derann told me he'd actually never seen Super-8 with VS in all his years selling films.

-but what worries me is all of my own films that have been filmed on good old Kodak cartridge film (all acetate.) Everything is fine so far, and I'm getting them out of steel cans and into cardboard boxes one by one.

Posted by Daniel D. Teoli Jr. (Member # 6043) on August 25, 2017, 10:45 AM:

Most of my collection is regular 8mm. Was R8 from the 1950's and 60's acetate or poly?

I guess cardboard was a good thing as that may have helped out the old films and allowed some breathing. I'm trying the archival plastic with vent holes.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2017, 10:48 AM:

Gepes?

If I won the lottery (...if I played the lottery), every reel I have would be a Gepe!

I would imagine old R8 would be acetate, I'd be pleasantly surprised if it wasn't.

My favorite test for acetate/poly is to hold the reel up to the light and let it shine through the film. If it's a nice golden honey color, it's poly. If it's opaque, acetate. The problem you run into is the poly color can get much darker to the point where it's not so easy to be sure.

Poly is much tougher to tear than acetate, but I'm not big on destructive testing so I've never tried this.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 25, 2017, 03:50 PM:

I've never seen poly standard 8, but then again, that's merely anecdotal.

Daniel, sounds to me like you're spot on with your observations and plans concerning storage.

Put it this way: ALL collections with acetate film have a VS problem, just whether it's sooner or later.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 25, 2017, 03:52 PM:

-death and taxes!

(and VS!)

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 26, 2017, 10:15 AM:

No, CASTLE and other distributors went acetate - You won't have trouble with VS, unless storage is inadequate and too much humidity affects the prints - Cardboard boxes, of which I'm an advocate, will release oxides, though not harmful - They are more attractive than the usual cans, as most will have excellent box-art which is your second collectible - I have some Super 8 in poly, they hold up as well - Collecting these many years, I've encountered no VS, except when I bought from others, then I go into my experimentation with baking soda (sprinkled in the the open boxes, and allowing them to air for a week or so) - Also a few dabs on the film proper, both sides, let that sink in for about a week or so and my results yield a 75% drop in odor - Now, I've worked this on a 2-part Charlie Chase (BROMEO & JULIET), and a Chaplin (THE MASQUERADER), both in Std 8 - Those are (were) my only two casualties in all these years - Not saying there isn't more - Storage and proper air circulation, the same with comic books, toys, recordings and emphrema (as particular, posters, lobbies, books and magazines) - Hope to see many of you next week in Buffalo - Shorty

Posted by Evan Samaras (Member # 5070) on August 26, 2017, 10:32 AM:

I have encountered an S8 print with VS. It was the german 2 parter release of Phantasm (Das Bose). The VS was no question. Unfortunately I don't recall the stock it was printed on. I guess although uncommon, some S8 prints could be susceptible to VS. Probably wouldn't help keeping an S8 print near a 16mm VS print.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 26, 2017, 11:11 AM:

If they're both in cans, it might be a defense mechanism - Like I say, nothing immune to VS - Take chances on most film-buys, overall they'll be okay in smell and content - Now, remember if some prints smell like shoe-polish (so to speak), it means they were cleaned with renew or somesuch - VS is unmistakable, as if you'd pour it on a garden salad - shorty

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 26, 2017, 02:53 PM:

I havnt experienced VS with 16mm and never want to, however, phil at chc did say there is something you can do to a print that has it and he has the treatments. I have absolutly no idea what it is but whenever i have read about VS i understood the film was finished and for the dustbin.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 27, 2017, 08:57 AM:

Maybe Phil will share - In the mean, I use baking soda and open air - Slow success, yet it does have progressive results, as I mentioned - For those who use metal cans/reels, try to limit this to prints you may not run too often or will eventually trade away - Metal (under humid conditions particularly), releases oxide gas that hurt celluloid - I have excatly 3 shorts in metal cans/reels, and again I maintain a moderate air circulation all the time - They are still as fresh as when purchased - True, some prints are extreme in smell and must be reluctantly trashed, unless there is a method to combat and restore the emulsion - It's like comic books and paper that turns yellow, unless you use acid-free boards/archival bags, they will turn - I cut some section of those boards (roundly), place them in a can or box, then place the film or films in bags - This also is positive approach - Everything ages, we all do - Work your best - Cheers, Shorty

Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on August 28, 2017, 03:50 AM:

I was under the impression that once V.S. starts it's only a matter of time. I only have one feature badly affected and it's one I value most (Question 7). It still runs perfectly and stinks to high heaven. Fortunately, if the worst comes to the worst, I can invest in a dvd and still show it on the big screen.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 28, 2017, 04:48 AM:

As Joe says, the open air can help.
Some years ago I imported a 16mm TV show from the US which had a horrible smell, although it looked OK and projected well.
I placed it outside each day (taking it indoors at night!) for quite a few days. The smell slowly reduced to acceptable. But it never went away completely.
It is always suggested to keep such a film on plastic spools in cardboard boxes, the cardboard letting the film breathe.

Posted by Daniel D. Teoli Jr. (Member # 6043) on August 28, 2017, 06:00 AM:

Yes, airing out seemed to help my vinegar issue for the most part and am storing in vented plastic cans now.

Joe, have you used any of the film rejuvenators?

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 28, 2017, 11:44 AM:

VITA-FILM years back, then FilmGuard (or REnew) - Tend to smell a bit, though in a good way - 8mm has it's share of VS, and again, it is storage - baking soda, proper circulation and just outright "airing" will help the cause - On the Chase short that had a strong odor, it has a 20% I'd say (minimal) odor now, still experimenting - When I was into 16, no trouble with VS, just storage in high heat caused them to turn lousy, but not the salad dressing as we know it now - I strongly am committed to fresh air, soda and if needed, molecular sieves - lately, I've emptied the little capsule that comes with prescriptions, added that into the can or box, seems to help a bit also- Cheers all-around, Shorty

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