8mm Forum: Stereo Sound on films. You can keep it i dont need it !

This is topic Stereo Sound on films. You can keep it i dont need it ! in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 14, 2017, 12:51 PM:

I make no secret of the fact I prefer Mono sound on film soundtracks and that I dislike stereo.

It is no secret that I also prefer Optical sound rather than Magnetic stripe soundtracks.

Why ?... You may ask me. It does not make sense as surely stereo sound greatly enhances the movie viewing experience.

Also surely Mag stripe is far superior in fidelity than those noisy old "tinny" sounding Optical soundtracks.

However for me stereo just does not do it on movies and neither does the Magnetic stripe sound.

I have my reasons for this and for me they are very valid.

So I will stick with Mono and Optical sound whenever I have a choice to do so. [Big Grin]

I state the above as a regular Classical music and Opera goer and as a Hi-Fi enthusiast.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 14, 2017, 01:04 PM:

I may have sit this one out!

All of my Super-8 is either magnetic sound or just plain silent.

I have like three 16mm films (so far): kind of a small sample. Besides, I haven't connected into my sound system yet.

Then again, I hear a lot of optical sound through a good sound system at CineSea: I've never heard anything terrible.

I've always wondered if an optical system has a leg up on hum. There are stray magnetic fields everywhere and without a magnetic sound head there is much less likelihood of them showing up in the speakers.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 14, 2017, 01:54 PM:

Stereo doesnt bother me too much. The main point of watchin a projected movie for us is the picture size and quality. We also enjoy 1st class sound quality via a good pioneer stereo amp all be it twin mono but the with excellent sound produced by the 1200HD and amplified with a very good amp we get better than average results.
As for optical sound, its not brilliant on 8 but 16mm with the additional processes to the film it is first class. I read in a derann article,i put that on a thread on here, that the superior process on 16mm optical prints means you dont get the hiss and pops that you can get with 8mm [Wink]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 14, 2017, 01:56 PM:

For me stereo all the way on my films,recording whenever I can as the difference in the old sound compared to new is so noticeable it's like watching another film,some mono recordings are good but if you can improve your viewing experience by another level then surely it must be done, Optical sound on super 8 isn't the best on some prints but it is what it is,normally fine but wobbly on music as a rule,I honestly can't see what's not to like about stereo prints David,it would be like going to your opera with ear plugs in and taking them out to hear it properly,Mark

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on December 14, 2017, 02:12 PM:

I am baffled by this. With all the hype of super 8 stereo sound - it doesn't seem that good in pro logic surround.

When these machines were built, Pro Logic (PL) did not exist for the consumers. You had to go to a theater to experience it, some time in the mid 70's.

So these stereo sound machines we have, are better suited for standard 2 channel stereo. Loose the center and surround.

Once you get that sorted, then you have the quality of the actual recordings that for the most part, aren't that great to begin with.

Sometimes the stereo is decent coming off the film tracks and my GS machines. Other times it is sub-par.

But in experimenting with my setup - I find loosing surround and center and going with 2 channel seems much better.

Having said this, I also have lots of sound power. Coming out of PL system it goes to a pair of Pyramid brand power amplifiers rated at 250 watts per channel. In these two amplifier are left, center, right, and twin sub woofers behind the screen.

At the screen, the speakers are left and right tower (T-120 by Radio Shack); a Yamaha center speaker, and twin Pioneer standard book shelf speakers for bass only with the tweeter and mid ranges turned down. What is important here is that all five speakers have the same size woofers across the width of the screen.

When the bombs go off in Die Hard - the sound is quite good down here.

Chip G

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 14, 2017, 02:13 PM:

I certainly wouldnt rule it or or critise it. Not at all, i think ive grown up in the hobby with very good twin mono sound and all my audiences have commented on how good the sound and image is.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 14, 2017, 02:31 PM:

As I've said before i had a print of the Fog 600ft and played it with it's original mono sound through Elmo speakers and although the audience enjoyed it the reactions of them they could have been watching a cartoon,I rerecorded it off the DVD,same film,same speakers and same projector but a totally different reaction from the audience,they jumped at the appropriate places,totally different experience from the same film,non amplified only from the GS1200,I have since ran it through an amp and sounds superb,the quality is so much better. If you have a great recording projector and follow a few rules to get the best out of it then the results do speak for themselves,Mark

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on December 14, 2017, 03:42 PM:

I get great multi channel sound from Optical.. through my Ultra Stereo JS105-195, Kelmar Dolby Analog sound head, wired to a DA20 Digital Film Sound Processor and Yamaha RX-750 amp [Big Grin]

...just kidding [Wink]

Anyway back to the small stuff.. the magnetic stereo prints I bought new from Derann years ago "The Lion King" and "Beauty and the Beast" are outstanding in stereo. However all my 8mm/16mm film go through a Graphic Equalizer, you used to buy them second hand and quite cheap, and it does make a difference for both mono and stereo.

A good soundtrack through a good sound system, can really enhance you visual experence....eg "JAWS"....BOOM....BOOM...BOOM...BOOM... [Eek!]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 14, 2017, 03:49 PM:

The original Derann stereo recordings Graham are nothing compared to a good digital rerecord,the mag tracks just give so much more,you mention Jaws too and another one I have redone and again what a difference,Mark

Posted by Oliver F. R. Feld (Member # 1911) on December 14, 2017, 03:51 PM:

I re-recorded my BEN HUR print in splendid Stereo-Sound.
Charlton Heston standing on the very right side of the Scope image, Haya Harareet on the very left; their voices on the very right and very left side; the single sections of the orchestra filling all parts of the speakers... I can’t imagine it in another way...
It makes sense to use the Stereo sound - if it was originally meant to be heard in the cinemas...!

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 14, 2017, 03:59 PM:

Plus of course the amazing chariot race in stereo,done my print and awesome!!!Mark

Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on December 14, 2017, 04:24 PM:

'I have my reasons for this and for me they are very valid'

David, you didn't tell us what your reasons for disliking stereo and magnetic tracks are.

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on December 14, 2017, 05:34 PM:

I like all forms of sound, as for optical, that 'thump' that occurs when an unblooped join passes the sound head is all part of the film experience.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 14, 2017, 05:57 PM:

Some reasons I don't like stereo soundtracks.

1... Stereo is nothing more than a gimmick of sound reproduction be it from film soundtracks or cds , records or tapes.

2 ... I cant stand all that sound panning be it from left to right , center , rears , or sides. It always reminds me of the early days of vinyl and tapes when they were demonstrating stereos with the sounds of trains , racing cars , ping pong balls , and sax players on the right , trumpets on the left , singer or whatever in the middle.

3 : Since film is a visual medium I don't need to hear an actor's dialogue coming from wherever he/she is standing.
I can clearly see that on the screen image. My brain is more than capable of comprehending that without any sound artifices.
The same applies for sound effects.

4 : Orchestral music sounds totally diffuse and unnatural on stereo film soundtracks and is usually close miked and poorly recorded in an unnatural manner. Besides music should always be only used as a secondary support and supplemental to the on screen narrative. Sadly this is not usually the case. Most times there is far to much music in a film to fill in gaps of a poor or cheesy movie. Its a lot worse these days.

5 : Stereo sound perspectives are way overblown on film soundtracks due to badly mixed or overblown sounds.

If the overall mix is badly done for the sake of effect we end up with 40foot violins , 8 feet sets of door keys , motor cars that seem to have the sound pressure levels of jet aircraft , small on screen explosions that sound like an atomic bomb going off and much much more.

6 : Stereo in movies like all reproduced sources be it music or the spoken word is not natural but artificial.

7 : There is a common misconception that the addition of stereophonic sound reproduction was the necessary correct step in perfecting monophonic recording. This was a big mistake they should have put more time and research in to perfecting mono sound even more. Its more natural.

8 : Stereophony does not exist as a natural scientific phenomenon. It is believed that because we hear with two ears sound should be recorded with two microphones or more if it is to sound natural. This is false and a myth.

We actually hear in Mono not Stereo.

The impression of stereophonic dimension and direction takes place within the listener and not in the sound sources.

The stereophonic signal does not in itself include the spatial stereophonic effect. It includes only two Mono signals.

9 : Therefore electronically reproduced Stereo sounds are nothing more than unnatural gimmicks. Mono sound sources are much closer to natural sounds even though they too may be electronically reproduced.

10 : Live is neither Mono or Stereo. Its REAL not REPRODUCED.
Hence one reason I attend live Classical and Opera concerts.

Amplified music rock/pop concerts can never be heard "live" for that very reason ... they are amplified reproductions of the sources.

Just some reasons why stereo sound reproductions does not do it for me in movies.

If it rocks your boat though that's fine by me.

I will stick to Mono though be it reproduced one channel or two I am just fine with it. I don't need any gimmicky sound system enhancements to add to my enjoyment of a movie. For me the movie is either good or bad or just about okay.

That's one reason I really like Silent Movies a lot they are pure cinema for me.

[Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 14, 2017, 08:15 PM:

Well one thing about silent movies David.....they are definitely mono! [Big Grin]

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on December 14, 2017, 10:18 PM:

My Elmo is optical / magnetic 2-track projector ... I've got a optical film - Grizzly Adams - but I would like to run a stereo film through it and see what it is like [Smile]

Music would be ideal I would think.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on December 14, 2017, 11:21 PM:

Clinton does Osi know this? LOL

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on December 14, 2017, 11:49 PM:

Yes Chip he does LOL
we messaged each other about this a while ago.
My copy is more faded than his [Smile]

Posted by Oliver F. R. Feld (Member # 1911) on December 15, 2017, 12:35 AM:

David,
when have You been to a live concert lately?
Even if You close Your eyes You can hear the difference of the instruments on the different sides.
I know a guy here in Berlin who says „There is nothing but the Mono sound of Schellack records to enjoy Swing Orchestra Music.“ And the sound works and is nice. But the original source was an orchestra playing in front of 1 microphone.
2 years ago he went to a concert which plays the music in the original orchestrations of the old times but he dislikes it... Strange, isn’t it?
I don’t think that Stereo is a gimmick; Stereo takes into account our natural way of listening.
But this is only my opinion.
My Christmas screening will be HELLO DOLLY this year... in Stereo.
Merry Christmas to all of You

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 15, 2017, 03:33 AM:

Oliver I knew someone was going to state that about live orchestral concerts.

I have been recently to a concert and I can assure you that what you are alluding to is the directional spatial aspect of the instruments. This is not stereo but mono. We cannot hear stereo in the natural world. In fact nothing in the natural world has a stereo aspect to it. It is an illusion we create and hear inside our heads.

The music arrive at our ears as a homogenous whole. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 15, 2017, 03:59 AM:

For me stereo recording just sounds better,saying that I've done a few mono rerecords too as some films can sound muffled,it's not just the stereo sound it's the clarity I like,twin track mono redone makes a huge difference too,so I guess for me it's the better sound reproduction I can achieve,Mark

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 15, 2017, 04:15 AM:

Mark nothing wrong with double mono sound in my opinion.
As for clarity that's what I want on any soundtrack.
That and a well balanced mix between the dialogue and music and effects in mono sound.
[Wink]

Posted by Oliver F. R. Feld (Member # 1911) on December 15, 2017, 12:13 PM:

In my world is a natural multiphone effect - and humans have two ears to be able to locate a sound. Stereophonic recordings are based on this

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 15, 2017, 01:00 PM:

Oh no! And only today I finished wiring up my 5.1 surround system in our new cinema. And I'm upset that I've had to loose my 6.1 configuration...

Seriously though, David, each to their own of course and nothing better than a movie with clear dialogue and nicely balanced music and effects.

As I'm sure you know, the term stereo doesn't only apply to 2 channel sound, but any multitude of channels.

We humans have two ears so that, when both working correctly, when facing a particular direction, we can locate the source of a sound in both horizontal and vertical plane.

This largely due to delay (and frequency) from one ear to the other, and yes, it does generally locate singular sources of sound from different directions.

However, we are complex creatures and can, as David points out, locate many mono sound sources at the same time.

Stereo sound reproduction is designed to replicate PLACEMENT of sound sources over horizontal and vertical planes (step forward Dolby Atmos), just like in real life.

Good "stereo" replicates real life and adds to the impact of a movie.

If everyday life came from a singular mono sound source, you'd quickly be run over by a car coming from your left or right instead of in front of you!

I know for a fact that the emergency services in the UK now trial white noise blast as well as sirens to give an indication of approaching direction.

The best "stereo" sound mixes replicate (or maybe enhance for effect) real life.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on December 15, 2017, 06:28 PM:

David, with respect, how did you arrive at the idea that we hear in mono? I don't understand that. Assuming one has two good ears the differences in time in how the sound reaches each ear is what the brain uses to pinpoint sounds. We hear a 'sphere' of sound around us at all times. Stereo systems try to imitate that by using more than one channel of sound.

I enjoy mono sound on films before 1953 and the simpler approach is valid. I use only centre speakers for mono films. But modern films with 5-way sounds are great and it's not always a gimmick. There are certainly a lot of bad movie soundtracks but there are some good natural ones too. How do you feel about the 1950s Fox films?

I recommend googling 'the Haas effect' if anyone has any doubts.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 15, 2017, 06:44 PM:

I have very naughty trick I play sometimes to get my point across regarding stereo sound.

One of my Quad Hi Fi systems is comprised of a pair of Quad Electrostatic loudspeakers and a Quad 33 Pre-amp / Quad 303 Power amplifier.

I invite friends or guests to listen to some of my stereo recordings on it via Vinyl / CD / Reel to Reel tapes or Music Cassettes.

They always marvel at how great and transparent and natural the sound is when compared to conventional moving coil or horn loudspeakers. They mention how wide and deep the stereo sounded and it was almost as if they were at a live event.

I then with a grin on my face point to my Quad 33 Pre amp control button settings.

You should see their faces when they realize that I have pressed in the two buttons for Mono sound via left and right channels.

What they had been listening all along was a STEREO fold down to a MONO source and they couldn't even hear it... I rest my case ! [Big Grin]

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on December 15, 2017, 07:46 PM:

What case?

Posted by Oliver F. R. Feld (Member # 1911) on December 16, 2017, 12:57 AM:

Rob explained it sooooo well and precisely...

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on December 16, 2017, 10:59 AM:

David, your friends are either very undiscerning or very polite...

'Stereo' means three dimensional or solid. It doesn't mean two-channel. Fox 4 channel magnetic sound in the cinema or quadrophonic stereo illustrate this.

In fact a healthy two-eared person is always listening in stereo even when they are listening to a mono recording. If the doorbell goes or the phone rings you will hear exactly where it is, even behind yourself. So the opposite of what you say is true.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 16, 2017, 11:56 AM:

Human beings and animals all have two ears for a reason - so they can determine the direction of sound. Just as two eyes give us visual depth, two ears give acoustic depth.
Every stereo re-record that I have done on super 8 has resulted in a far more impactive film viewing than the original mono film.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on December 16, 2017, 12:40 PM:

As may have been said equipment and room are important. Remember that Stanley Kubrick had mixed "A Clockwork Orange" in Stereo (I assume 4 track magnetic) but wouldn't have it released as such. This was due to, in pre-Dolby days (when there was nothing like the 27 band equalization on each channel that Dolby brought) he thought it would be ruined by the individual cinema set ups.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 17, 2017, 10:55 AM:

Oh well guys it seems no matter what I say you will choose to ignore the scientific facts about stereo only existing inside our perceptions and not in nature.

Steve what you are referring to is not stereo but binaural hearing. Not the same thing.

I was going to post some research papers and findings but I will not bother now.

I will say no more on this subject and leave you all to your "stereo illusions".

This matter is now closed to me. [Smile]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 17, 2017, 01:13 PM:

Ok, lets get down to real basics, this is me,
Got my own room,
Picture one, two wharfdale speakers 8ohm 100w,
Pic two, Old pioneer stereo amp,
Elmo ST1200HD, through the aux out into the amp, very decent speaker wire going off to the two speakers which when the room isn't a pig sty, (i am currently pulling it to pieces), give out twin, but perfect mono sound. That'l do for me chiefs. [Wink]

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on December 17, 2017, 05:22 PM:

David...movies are an illusion. Stereo sound enhances the experience. Not sure why you are trying to convince everyone it's fake or not to like it. If you don't like it then don't use it.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on December 17, 2017, 05:23 PM:

double post....sorry

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on December 18, 2017, 01:15 AM:

Looks good Tom [Cool]

For Super8 or 16mm I have found that just a couple of single 8ohm speakers is about as good as I can get it, either L/R mono or L/R stereo depending what I screening and as such, selected on a audio four input, one out switch. However as Mark and Paul have re-recorded there films to a much higher standard. I can imagine they would be getting excellent stereo reproduction as a result.

I do like the idea of sound moving with what you are watching on the screen. An example of this, was when I was setting up my amp at home and to hear the results I ran the ""Battle of Britain" DVD. There was a scene, where a Spitfire was going from left to right across the Scope screen, what I did hear at the same time, was sound of the merlin engine going across from my LS..to...L...R...RS speakers. It sounded great.

Sound is a very important part of going to the cinema. One example was when I went to watch "Letters from Iwo Jima" at a cinema in town. It looked good and the sound was OK but it lacked impact. After a few months I managed to get a print and what a difference running it through our sound system, when those battleships opened up.. BOOM.. you could feel it...and so on.

Its not to say that the sound level was to high its not. The amplifiers were of good quality and with heaps in reserve connected to a good speaker system. The amps were simply just ticking over...hence the quality of the sound.

If you are thinking of getting a home theatre amp, buy one thats got heaps of power which of course is more expensive to buy, but you will find it will give you excellent results, without any distortion and simply because you are not pushing it hard.

When the cinema closed I did have the chance to buy the complete Cinema 2 amps in there rack for less than a single cheap home theatre amp....it was a mistake not to to grab them, although it might have been a wee bit over the top having them at home [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 18, 2017, 02:50 AM:

Graham,
Yes I get great stereo reproduction on the films I record,you get so much more out of the tracks. If anyone has the Elmo stereo test film then that's a nice example of good stereo sound straight out the box,the Spitfire scene you mention is very similar to the go carts on the test film,with DVD sound rerecorded onto film you do get some fantastic results,Mark

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 21, 2017, 01:51 PM:

Bill ... I know movies are an illusion. I also know Stereo sound is a bigger illusion than Mono sound.

However given a choice and as I am a greater fan of Silent Movies than Talkies , Stereo sound does absolutely nothing to enhance my viewing experience.

In the same way as in a purely audio sense Stereo sound does nothing to enhance my appreciation of a classical piece of music any more than a well recorded Mono version does.

Its the performance that counts.

So for me the movie is primary the sound secondary. [Wink]

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on December 21, 2017, 02:09 PM:

I enjoy both mono and stereo sound on movies as well as lp's. A good mix in either mono or stereo can sound great. I also enjoy silent movies as well....I like stories told by the camera.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on December 21, 2017, 03:30 PM:

Either way, Mono or stereo, if the sound breaks the illusion of the film it is bad for you.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on December 21, 2017, 04:28 PM:

Regarding sound to "enhance" your viewing experence, well you cant beat this folks [Big Grin]

https://youtu.be/U1fu_sA7XhE

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 21, 2017, 05:21 PM:

Another one I've done Graham,stereo trailer and my 2x400,sounds awesome,Mark

Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on December 21, 2017, 06:58 PM:

Well if you want good Stereo or Mono sound if you have the room for it go 35mm and you'll never look back.

I now find myself not running Super 8 or 16mm for that matter anymore. I think it's down to how inferior the quality is on both gauges compared to Blu-Ray or HD for that matter.

As you know some Super 8 prints can be printed soft along with neg marks etc. Unless you're working from the original negative, from memory the only prints stand out are the Disney's of this world. But do remember these are animated features so the quality is limited in what you'd expect from a cartoon in any format for that matter.

With 16mm, you have mono sound, cropped image, pan and scan, TV prints, faded prints and library prints which are a lot to be desired for unless it's the only print you can find of that title.

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