8mm Forum: SOLVED: Pathe Baby Takeup Chamber winding film too tightly

This is topic SOLVED: Pathe Baby Takeup Chamber winding film too tightly in forum 9.5mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 20, 2013, 02:35 AM:

Halfway through some of my Pathex films the film seems to tighten and it stops advancing with the claw and just winds directly into the takeup chamber. At first I thought it was the film being curled or warped...but now I'm thinking the problem is not with the film...but rather in the takeup chamber. Last night I watched how the film entered the chamber. It starts out fine...but then it progressively winds tighter and tighter until about halfway through the reel it's so tight that the film coming into the chamber has no slack and raises the metal guide binding it up between the film entering the chamber and the film already rolled up. At this point the claw disengages and turning the crank just pulls the film into the takeup chamber opposed to being advanced by the claw.

The problem is only with the two larger reels I have...since the smaller reels are not long enough to reach the binding stage in the chamber.

Has anybody had this issue? It seems like such a simple design...but maybe there is something I can adjust in the takeup chamber.

[ October 20, 2013, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on October 23, 2013, 01:24 AM:

Janice
Do not be deceived the Pathe Baby is probably the most sophisticated machine out there. Any tiny little misalignment can affect the action... This is a time where a picture might tell the story...Essentially the film is supposed to get tighter and tighter around the center hub otherwise the film will accordion in the take up chamber, BUT it is not supposed to just start flying past the gate, so my guess is the actual problem might be something different..For Instance the take up chamber shouldn't really affect the claw disengaging so if that is happening then the problem lies elsewhere.

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on October 23, 2013, 06:38 AM:

Hi Janice and Dino,

"Essentially the film is supposed to get tighter and tighter around the center hub"

This is not really correct. The film should curl up loosely inside the receiving chamber, gradually forming a neat circle of film around the centre hub. It should not attatch itself to the hub but only curl around it and keep slipping on it as the hub turns.
This system has a practical working capacity of only a small reel of film and it will jam if you exceed the limit. If you keep feeding it film it will eventually jam and lock on the hub. Then it will yank the film off the claw as is happening with poor Janice.

For watching larger reels a conversion was designed by Pathe. The film tip was made to exit the take-up chamber soon after it arrived via cutout section in the glass. The film wasn't allowed to curl around the hub at all.
A larger delivery reel and a larger take up reel were located externally and a belt drove the the new bigger takeup reel with an adjustable friction clutch to stop the film being pulled off the claw by the takeup.

I will email Doug a pic of my motorised Baby for him to post here. It shows the cutout glass section and the external take up reel.

Does your Baby have a cut out section in the front glass Janice?
How are you playing larger reels on it?

dogtor frankarnstein [Smile]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on October 23, 2013, 11:08 AM:

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on October 23, 2013, 11:46 AM:

Frank forgive my specificity by using the word "tight" janice has a simple baby and is not talking about 300 foot reels with extensions all of the reels she showed us were 30 and 60 footers

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on October 24, 2013, 01:19 PM:

Hi Dino

If Janice has these film-tightening problems with the smaller reels as well the bigger ones then it would seem that something may be not right in the take up.
Didn't she write that it was winding up Ok till she tried playing the larger size reels and only then encountered the problem of film tightening on the hub?

dogtor frankarnstein

[Smile]

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 24, 2013, 02:13 PM:

I intitally thought the smaller reels were not effected. ...but based on testing as of yesterday. It appears that both size reels (large and small) are having the take up problem. Towards the end of the smaller reels the film is also being pulled through gate just as with the larger ones. It's at the point when the spooled film is wound tighly on the spindle not allowing the claw to advance the film. I think I'll shoot a video and that will give you a better idea of what's happening.

I'm also having a problem with the lamp. It was very bright when I first used the projector...but the brightness has reduced by 50% now. This makes it difficult video the image so you can see what's happening...but I'll try and shoot closeups of the film being pulled through the gate and into the chamber.

BTW...I know upgrading the lamp system is optimal...however for now are there replacement lamps available?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on October 24, 2013, 02:22 PM:

Yes, Janice, it is possible to find Pathé Baby bulbs. As I am going to London tomorrow morning, I cannot look now for sites where these bulbs could be available. In French a bulb or a lamp is called "ampoule" or "lampe".

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 24, 2013, 07:41 PM:

It's sure rough having a new "Baby" in the house...and like any new parent gotta take lots of photos and video. Here's the video of my baby misbehaving. I hope this helps show the problem a little better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7xEuY_Wo_Q [Roll Eyes]

[ October 24, 2013, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on October 24, 2013, 11:17 PM:

janice as for the lamp I know this sounds simple but make sure the resistance slider on the base has not been moved as that will affect the brightness of the lamp. Now I'll watch the video.

OK Janice test something...Take the little cover off the opposite side of the take up chamber that is covering the 2 little pulleys (or gears depending on models)...Take the glass off the take up chamber....Hold your finger on the bottom pulley on the left so it can't rotate, and try and roll the spindle inside the takeup chamber...It should rotate freely,this is usually what makes sure that the film doesn't wrap up tightly if it doesn't roll freely when the pulley is stopped then that is your problem...

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 25, 2013, 01:48 AM:

Dino...The resistance lever was all the way to the left...the brightest setting. However, I was able to get the light brighter by raising the lamp higher [Smile]

Next...Here's what I see after doing the test you suggest...

The hub guide (has the rubber ring in the center of the drum) screws into the lower gear on the other side. Turning the hub left unscrews it and right tightens it. I don't see this part rotating independently from the gear or the drum. Does your hub move independently?

I tried loosening the hub and then ran a 60ft reel. It actually ran almost all the way through without a problem. I checked the hub after rewinding and it had tightened up again. The rewinding action turned the hub in the opposite direction ..tightening it to the gear again. I ran the same reel again without looseing the hub and it jammed again.

Rewinding has been difficult from the start on this machine. I have to continually loosen the film from the hub to get it to rewind. Is this typical?

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on October 25, 2013, 07:10 AM:

Janice, Dino is on the right track.

I have tested a perfect Baby here and can confirm that the hub must move quite freely in both directions but not free enough to be spun by your finger.

The tiny locknut in the centre must be locked in place by its thread. It controls and adjusts a tiny spring loaded friction clutch behind the hub. This allows the hub to rotate with the shaft, to curl the film into a circle and keep curling it up as it arrives.

However, the hub must slip as soon as any more than a small amount of load is applied. The spring provides the pressure for the friction needed to keep the two units rotating together till it is overcome by the drag load of the film.

That's why Babies shouldn't pull the film off the claw. They can't pull hard enough because the hub should start to slip on its shaft if the film tightens up. At this point maximum capacity is reached. Further tightening of the lock-nut may enable more film will be pulled in by the hub. Adjust this nut and then apply a tiny drop of superglue on the thread to keep it from moving again when the hub turns in either direction.

See what you find and let us know.

dogtor frankarnstein
[Smile]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 25, 2013, 01:40 PM:

I'm wondering if Janice's problem is due to inadequate gate pressure. Might be worth checking the rear sprung gate plate, and making sure that the top clip on the lamp housing arm is engaging correctly.
Rewinding the 30ft and 60 ft casettes on my Baby has always been a pain. Like Janice said, you have to keep lossening the film on the take up to be able to rewind any film at all. Pathe should have had a roller below the gate so the film does not scrape on the housing as you rewind. And that tiny little rewind handle is a poor design. Mine has separated from the shaft because of the enormous tension required to rewind the casettes.
All these problems are solved by using the 300ft super attachment.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 25, 2013, 02:39 PM:

Ok..Paul, you answered my question about the rewind. Since this is typical I won't sweat it [Smile]

The question I have is if the hub is connected to the gear & pulley...when tightened it can only move as freely as the gear & pulley turns it...right? There is no independent action. I have oiled the upper gear and the lower pulley and they move freely. The spring belt looks good also. One variable might be the guide above the hub that creates some tension to hold the film in place and then there's the guide at the bottom of the gate. I'm not sure though how much these guides factor into keeping the film from winding too tightly.

I'm also re-thinking that the films themselves could be a factor. Some don't want to advance even from the start. This might address Paul's comment about the gate tension needing adjustment.

Dino...If I can't rule out the condition of the film contributing to this problem...could I send you some of the reels to see how they behave on your Baby?

Lot's to consider [Confused]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on October 25, 2013, 11:59 PM:

Paul and Janice it is NOT normal for the film to not easily rewind back up into the spool...The only problems I have ever had with properly functioning babies are with damaged cassette housings, where the hole that the rewind lever fits into is bent or enlarged and the rewind lever keeps slipping, other than that the film should quickly and easily spool back up into the cassette..
watch the end of this little video I made a couple of years ago of a baby I sold and see how easily a film should rewind
pathe baby G2

Now as for the current take up problem I shot a little video tonight of how that center hub should move

take up chamber

...and of course janice if you want to send me your films I can let you know how they perform in a perfectly running baby.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 26, 2013, 01:35 AM:

Thanks Dino for the video...that answered my question about how the hub moves. It looks like at least on your Baby that the hub does turn independently from the center screw connected to the pulley. This is not how mine is working. Perhaps the screw is frozen inside the hub...I tried to unscrew it...but it didn't budge easily and I didn't want to strip the screw head. At this point I'm not even sure if mine is just a different design. I'm not that strong with my hands...so if it is suppose to come out it will take some effort.

Here is what it looks like removed...

Also...my guess is if I get the hub spinning more freely...it will improve the rewinding since the hub will spin to loosen the film from the spindle.

This is definitely progress...just need to figure out how to get my Baby working like yours Dino [Smile]

I emailed Ron Ashton about this. He checked 3 of his Babies and like your machine Dino they all had freely turning hubs. I'm waiting to receive a book from Ron that explains how the Pathe Baby works and I think it has a list of parts I can buy from him. I'll see if it has a hub and tire that will correct the problem.

[ October 26, 2013, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on October 26, 2013, 05:51 PM:

Janice, the lamps I found tend to be expensive (espeacially if you ad the post and packing costs) or not available fo shipping outside France. There is however a tip given (in French, I am affraid) on this site (the author is named "Dom" but it is not me) http://www.tsf-radio.org/forum/forumgc.php?show=63777

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 26, 2013, 06:51 PM:

Yes Dominique...I kind of thought the cost might be to high. By the way here is the Google English translation of Dom's alternative....What is a "domino"? Is that the correct translation" [Confused]

1 - You take a 4.5v bulb flashlight.
2 - you break the glass, keeping the two separate filaments you.
3 - You connect the two filaments to a domino (the + small you find)
4 - you buy an Ikea 12v halogen bulb, 6w (no more)
5 - you connect the lamp to the domino.
And voila, your projector is gone. (this is a funny translation) [Smile]

I know the life of the lamp is short but finished the ruin of each proposed on the net lamp.

[ October 26, 2013, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on October 26, 2013, 09:49 PM:

Janice that screw should just pop out of the hub, and underneath it is a spring. The spring is very important.....The only part of the screw that is threaded is the back part that is screwed into the rear pulley..The part inside the hub is just a smooth shaft...take a small hammer or something and just tap it out as that must be your problem.....The grease or something has dried up and caused it to stick to the hub and that must be the only problem...Work that free and you should be good to go..

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 27, 2013, 12:05 AM:

BINGO DINO! [Cool]

I had to wait until the World Series game was over tonight...but then I pulled out the hub. Knowing how the hub was assembled was the important clue. I just pushed on the center and because of the spring it pushed in. I cleaned it with some WD-40 and it's now spinning independently just like yours [Smile]

I ran a 60ft reel and it ran perfectly....and as I suspected it also fixed the rewinding...it ran back into the cartridge very easily..didn't hang up once.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

[ October 27, 2013, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on October 27, 2013, 02:11 AM:

Good news that you could fix the projector ! The translations are often funny and sometimes you don't understand at all a sentence... A "domino" is that : http://www.confort-electrique.fr/accessoire-cablage-domino-sucre-c-98_414_417.html

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 27, 2013, 12:58 PM:

Well done Janice!
Now sit back and enjoy those 9.5mm films!

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 27, 2013, 08:31 PM:

Yes Paul...at last...I finally can watch the films I have. It seems I spend most of my time fixing stuff than using it...but I guess that goes with this obsession.

I'm going to just enjoy my Baby as it is for now...but I'm probably going to be asking questions about upgrading the lighting system in the future since getting bulbs for the Baby is beyond difficult and expensive. So be prepared at some point for questions Paul [Smile]

Posted by Brian Stearns (Member # 3792) on November 14, 2013, 02:36 AM:

So the secret of keeping the kids still is buying a baby Pathe [Smile]

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on November 14, 2013, 04:19 AM:

That's great new Janice, and the knowledge you have gained from repairing this may one day be passed on to someone else. What is the light output like on these machines?; they would have been designed for a smaller screen than we are used to today. Both my 16mm projectors use bulbs which are probably discontinued, and one is from the mid 60s. At the present time I can still get new (old stock), for about £5 or £6, but some lighting companies are asking as much as £79. Ridiculous; these bulbs have an estimated life of 20 hours.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 14, 2013, 09:25 AM:

Robert,
These projectors only use a 10 watt bulb, so the screen size in the Pathe advertisement (above) is, to say the least, slightly exaggerated. [Smile]

In practice, screen size is limited to about a 30 ins wide silver screen.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on November 14, 2013, 10:02 AM:

Thanks Paul, typical advertising, but no bad for the time, in the 50s TV screens were 14 inches, and for many years 18 inches was the largest you could get.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 14, 2013, 10:44 AM:

That's right. My parent's first TV, in 1956, was a 14 ins Phillips, so the 30 inch glass beaded screen used for the hand cranked Pathe Ace looked huge! [Smile]

Happy memories of cranking through such great silents as Blackmail, The Informer, White Hell of Pitz Palu, ETC.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on November 14, 2013, 01:07 PM:

You had some great films Paul. I remembered that in some museum I had seen a TV with a 9 inch screen and a huge wooden cabinet. My first screen was a glass beaded 40 inch, which at the time seemed huge; we thought it was like sitting in the cinema.

Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on November 18, 2013, 12:29 PM:

Hi Janice, Yes its me again!! re convering the Baby to modern lighting. Look through old posts and you will see Dino has done it and so have I using a little 12volt 10 watt halogen bulb and the 2 pin ceramic socket. All obtainable quite cheaply from your D.I.Y. store as is also a suitable lighting transformer to run it. Ken Finch. [Smile]

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on November 19, 2013, 02:33 AM:

Hi there Ken [Smile]

I will be looking into the conversion eventually. The holidays are coming up and lots of other projects are ahead. However, I will be researching all the threads and you can expect once I get started you know I'll be ready with plenty of questions.

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