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Author Topic: Best Prints From The 70's & 80's Who Made Them?
Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 13, 2003 12:14 AM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm still pretty new at collecting Super 8 (mostly new, short on pretty). I've bought a few Niles prints, but most of them don't have sharp focus and a few are washed out. Columbia Batman Serials from 1949 are excellent, but the ones from 1943 are not excellent. Are most Viacom prints from airline use? All the Viacoms I have are excellent. I have only one Derann, The Wizard Of Oz, which is excellent. Are Waltons good? How about Red Fox prints? Inquiring mindless collector wants to know. [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

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Mal Brake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 591
From: Neath, South Wales, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 13, 2003 11:14 AM      Profile for Mal Brake     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Walton were pretty much hit and miss with their prints. Some were very good indeed, Tarka the Otter 2 reel was superb. Some of their feature releases however left something to be desired. It was only late on that Walton used the balance stripe, some collectors complained about not being able to get overall sharp focus wih just the main stripe on the film. It all boils down to what master material the various distibutors had to work with. Print quality came on leaps and bounds in the 1990's, mostly from Derann, so you cant fairly compare now and then. One of the best prints I had in the old days was Deranns 4 reel version of CARRIE.

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I'm gonna live forever or die trying

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Trevor Adams
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 763
From: Auckland,New Zealand
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 13, 2003 03:46 PM      Profile for Trevor Adams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello Dan.Some of the more enduring colour prints I have from the '70s are Walton 4x400ft digests.By and large the colours are very good and definition is excellent.It's a pity Waltons sound was only average. I can't see these films ever going red.Pictures like North by Northwest and When Eight Bells Toll are real colourfests.
There are some great old b/w(on b/w stock) features,Oliver Twist,Great Expectations,Happiest Days of Your Life,Chiltern Hundreds etc. I've never had a "bad" Robin Hood or Wiz of Oz.When buying through the mail,ask ,1/Is the film going pink? 2/Is there much fade(ask if primary colours can be recognised and are facial features clear)? 3/Has the film got any scratches-a few intermittent railway lines may be acceptable at the beginning or end of a reel.? 4/Are any of the sprocket holes broken?(don't want film that is damaged) 5/Is the sound clear?
Regards,Trev

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Trevor

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 14, 2003 12:25 AM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks, Trevor and Mal, Super Eight is quite cool, especially when you get one of those really nice prints. When I started collecting S8, I thought the prints would cost less than 16mm, but not the case. Right now I'm using an Elmo ST-1200 but, hope to get a GS-1200 one day.

Thanks mates,

Dan

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Mal Brake
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 591
From: Neath, South Wales, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 14, 2003 08:00 AM      Profile for Mal Brake     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Dan.

The Walton 4x400 features were well edited compared to some of the other distributors.Deranns 4x400 version of 'THE DEVIL RIDES OUT' had lovely print quality but was spoiled by an enormous continuity lapse. Compare the editing in Waltons 'CARRY ON CLEO'
which was very smooth, to 'CARRY ON ABROAD'or 'CAMPING' which were a little uneven. Some of the Mountain 4x400's were a little choppy but had some good titles.
I have in my collection Waltons 4x400 version of 'HANNIE CAULDER'
which was well edited and had good print quality but sadly the colour has faded and looks like a sepia print. Luck of the draw!
Mal

[ September 14, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Mal Brake ]

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I'm gonna live forever or die trying

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Brad Kimball
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1171
From: Highland Mills, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 16, 2003 01:45 AM      Profile for Brad Kimball   Email Brad Kimball   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In respect of color fading......Here goes........
UNIVERSAL/CASTLE - Crapola - Eastman color prints that now look like they were dunked in wine.
COLUMBIA - Not too bad... some fading, but not anything like UNIVERSAL/CASTLE stuff.
KEN/FOX - Eh...it all depends on the title and what lab did it. KEN's 200'ers are worse than their 400'ers. Strange, I know, but go figure.
DERANN - Ahhhhhhh....... Now THAT'S COLOR!!!!! SUPERB!!
NILES - Junk....... Even the B&W stuff is crud.
RED FOX - Eh... Again, it depends on the title.
THUNDERBIRD - Crap
CANTERBURY - Varies, some "Trek" stuff is ok, but most of what I own is eh.
REEL IMAGES - So-so..... Most of what I have is pretty faded.
DISNEY - Ok...Not the greatest..several titles are pretty red today.

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 16, 2003 02:05 AM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad, it sounds like Derann is the only game in town for excellence. I do have a few Columbia digests and like you said, the color is not too bad. Overall (not overalls) my experience with Niles sucks.

Dan [Cool]

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 16, 2003 09:59 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dan,
It seems that fading is such a haphazard, random effect. I've had films from the same distributor that were stored right next to each other for years and one's turned while the other still looks great. Some of my Universal 8 digests are totally red (Hindenburg, Animal House, Dracula), some have slight fade (Jaws, High Plains Drifter) but certain titles have held up incredibly well (Battlestar Galactica, Eiger Sanction, and best of all, The Nude Bomb (!)). I have 7 Universal Woody Woodpecker cartoons that have amazingly vibrant color.
The Ken Films digests have a wide range also. Most of the 400's have faded but Alien and Empire Strikes Back are still sharp. I've found Columbia to be the worst of the bunch (There's barely an image left on The Deep), however Close Encounters still has some very strong blues.
The MGM 3-Reelers still look good as do the Warner's. All of my Disney's have faded.
As for features, I have a Red Fox print of Gorgo from the early 70's that has gone quite red but their 1979 print of Robin Hood is still beautiful. The Walton prints Twins Of Evil & Vampire Circus have held up nicely but not their Curse of the Crimson Altar.
My Marketing Films features (The Godfather, Chinatown) have slightly pink flesh tones but are still very acceptable.
Unfortunately, the early Derann's have gone totally red. Quartermass and the Pit, Scars of Dracula and Plague of the Zombies are all now appropriately blood-colored.
Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Richard Ward
Junior
Posts: 5
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Sep 2003


 - posted September 16, 2003 03:59 PM      Profile for Richard Ward   Email Richard Ward   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nobody mentioned Blackhawk, and of course they did mostly VERY OLD black and white stuff, but their quality was pretty good. It slipped toward the end (late 1970s), and some of their Super 8 prints actually look less sharp than Regular 8mm prints of the same title. I never could figure out why.

Richard

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 16, 2003 04:55 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
In the Uk here I would plump fro the Waltons and the UK produced Disneys. The waltons andmost of the Disney's were produced on Fuji film stock.
I have some early Deranns which have now gone red but the later titles on Kodak LPP and eventually Agfa stock look really good.
The Walton prints seemed to have a saturation to the colours which others failed to achieve and tended to be pin sharp. Just a shame that the T&J's were cut. [Eek!] as were most of Waltons releases.

Kevin.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 16, 2003 05:38 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
The real questions is who "made" the prints. The distributors didn't have laboratories and printers and contracted out that work. Disney used Hollywood Film Enterprises in the early years and I think Technicolor in the later years. Castle used Calvin Motion Pictures in Kansas City MO as did Blackhawk.

The major labs (Technicolor, CFI, Movielab, etc) didn't get into the 8mm game until the late 1960s after the introduction of Super8. It also marked a big difference in printing. The introduction of the Continous Optical Reduction Printer which used a 16mm negative and made direct reduction to two up (on 16mm wide stock) or four up (on 35mm wide stock)Super8 prints.

There were also many changes in the rawstock in the late 1970s which the introduction of SP (special process) and the low fade film.

I have no idea what laboratories were used in the the UK, but it would be an interesting study.

John

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 17, 2003 04:52 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
In the UK "Bucks Labs" did most of the super 8 printing for the majority of the film distributors and tended to favour Fuji Film stock. Bucks are still in business today. http://www.bucks.co.uk
As I said earlier most of the UK Disneys are holding up beautifully as they were printed by Bucks labs.
Walton however did their own printing and processing and were probably unique here in the UK for having their own facilities. Again they tended to use Fuji stock and most of their releases are still going strong where colour is concerned.

Kevin

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 18, 2003 04:44 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are you sure about that Kevin. I met Derek at the Rank lab a few years back (to pick up some review material) as this was where they were getting all their prints done at the time.

The printer they used at Rank was transferred North to the lab used now.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 18, 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
I think that I stand partly corrected on that score. I spoke to Derek not long before he passed away about fade on their Robin Hood extracts and he was telling me about Derann using Rank Labs for their earlier releases. I was also after a copy of Carry on Camping (still am) which had not faded like my earlier print and I'm sure he told me that some copies had been produced by Bucks labs after Derann had stopped using Rank and that I should look for one of those prints as they would be on Fuji. Or perhaps it was the other way round?
Maybe if Duncan is reading this thread he could perhaps clear this point up.
So Yes I think we are both right on this one. Must say hello to you at the next BFCC.

Kevin [Smile]

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 19, 2003 03:54 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rank's were using Agfa low fade stock in the end so the later prints should be with us for the next 100 years or so.

It will be good to see you at the BFCC. I can't believe the diversity Keith has lined up at this next one. Cinema is in the smaller Queen's Hall which is always a more relaxed atmosphere but with a 3D show, a sync' pulse show, 35mm CinemaScope shows, Cinerama lecture, VistaVision lecture and all the usual attractions it should be a good one.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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