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Author Topic: best sync source
Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 22, 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anybody have any hints on rerecording a sound track I won a auction for a little rascals short called “lucky corner” the film had no sound apparently you could buy them like this and the seller posted this, I thought it would be neat to experiment with this, well I found a DVD with this title I watched both side by side to make sure it was complete which it was, now my question is which source would be the closest to 24fps I will be recording this from my Elmo, I thought of 3 ways of doing this, by using the DVD direct or copy it to video and use the sound or transfer it to a cassette tape and use this, any ideas? thanks

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jim schrader
"Let's see 電o I have that title already?"

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 22, 2004 01:26 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You could get the film striped and record the sound to the stripe. In the long term this would be the easiest to live with.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 22, 2004 01:38 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the film is already striped it came this way from blackhawk

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jim schrader
"Let's see 電o I have that title already?"

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 22, 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jim, If you have a GS you will need to lock the GS to the same frame rate as your TV system. Here in the UK our TV runs at half mains frequency ie 25FPS. I have a crystal sync unit which plugs into the GS's ESS system and then locks it at 25FPS. It a very accurate way of locking the GS and has enabled me lip sync with DVD's with complete acuracy once you have got the start points correct. Tony, Mike and Chris saw an example of this last weekend when we had a mini cine convention. I showed them the first 600ft of Flash Gordon and I think they were suitably impressed with the Stereo soundtrack. [Smile]
Several people I think made units like this and I think that Cresta Electronics was one of them. Keep your eyes open for a unit on eaby or local dealers. John Clancy will probably be able to give you more info on the Cresta units.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Chris Quinn   Email Chris Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Kev, Your new sound track blew us all away, Fantastic!!
I would love to know more about how you did this, crystal set, Hmmmm this is a made up piece of kit then and not an optional extra from Elmo. John you must post and tell us more about this.
Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 02:53 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Keith Wilton was using pulse sync' in the early 80's. This takes a PAL video signal into a box a colleague of his at the BBC knocked up for him (for which he has the circuit diagram and has built several since - as have others), then into the Cresta Interface for the GS-1200 and finally into the ESS port of the GS. Result is perfect sync' for as long as the video source matches the film.

Cresta initially couldn't see the point of Keith's solution but despite their misgivings the same pulse sync' facility was built into their VS-2000 unit. So if you find one of these anywhere all you then need is the Cresta Interface for the GS-1200 and you're away.

If anyone is interested in spending a couple of pounds putting their own pulse box together I'll see if I can get the circuit diagram of Keith and slap it on the web site. Plenty of collectors have copied this circuit diagram with success. Nothing much to it - just cleans up the video signal so the 50hz pair of pulses gets through to the projector regardless of how dark the video picture is.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 07:38 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John

That would be an excellent idea- thanks to you and Keith.
Is it possible to construct the cresta interface as well or is it just pot luck finding one these days?

Tony

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Tony

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 07:44 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have two Cresta interfaces - one for each cinema. They do crop up from time to time but generally the dealers don't know what they are for. I'd put the word out with every dealer I could that I was after one. I'd also scour every table at the next convention.

If you have a GS-1200 and a Cresta Interface, sync' pulse is just a single step away.

Anyone interested in seeing it in action can either contact me for a demonstration or come along to the next convention where we plan the Super 8's Gladiator and Fifth Element in Dolby Digital 5.1 THX sound using sync' pulse.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 08:05 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the unput guys but all I have is the ST1200HD

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jim schrader
"Let's see 電o I have that title already?"

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Florida
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 09:11 AM      Profile for Alan Gouger     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim
I think we are out of luck here in the states anyway.
Ive heard it does not work with NTSC. Can anyone confirm this.
Can a 50hz unit be modified?

Thanks guys [Cool]

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 10:49 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim

I have ST1200's and they have an input on the front for something though not sure exactly what to plu in there!

I like them though. Built like tanks

Tony

John, might take you up on that offer- are you London based?

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Tony

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 11:04 AM      Profile for Chris Quinn   Email Chris Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The front jack on the ST-1200HD is a sync pulse jack, you would need the Elmo R1 synchronizer, and its purpose is mainly for synchronizing from a tape recorder that was connected to an Elmo camera. If this can be utilised in anyway to add sound to a film from DVD or video, I have no idea.
Chris.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony/Jim

The socket on the front of your ST is for the Elmo R-1 synchroniser, this is used to synchronise the ST 1200 with either a reel to reel tape recorder fitted with the Elmo SA-1 pulse reader or to the Elmo SR-1 tape recorder. Unlike the GS 1200 the ST 1200 is not 'forced' to run at the same speed as the tape recorder and the pick up on the front is used only to sense the frame rate and thus the speed of the projector so I'm not really sure how sync is acheived.

Tony, it might surprise you to hear that I have all the above items, in their respective boxes [Wink] so perhaps if we can get the chance we could have a play at synchronising on of your ST 1200s' with a tape source?

Mike

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 23, 2004 11:43 AM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike

Worth a go. Perhaps dropping a track onto tape from a DVD or something?

Tony

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Tony

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Florida
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 24, 2004 11:03 AM      Profile for Alan Gouger     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Can you guys confirm this does not work with NTSC. Could one be modified if that be the case?

Thanks!

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 24, 2004 12:48 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe there were two Elmo Cassette recorders, the SR-1 and the DR-1. I'm sure they were both mono. According to the instructions for the ST-1200: "The synchronizer R-1 'regurates' the running speeds of both the ST-1200 and SR-1 at a constant rate, receiving the synchro pulse signals from the ST-1200 and SR-1." Regurates?
Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

- posted January 25, 2004 05:06 AM      Profile for Chris Quinn   Email Chris Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan, did you get my mail???

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 25, 2004 05:27 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
I dont see any reason why they wont work using the NTSC system. Certainly the GS Interface from Cresta will work as it is only a means of converting an input pulse to a way in which the ESS on the GS requires it. I would think the other box would also extract the pulse out of an NTSC siganl just like it does with Pal all be it at a different rate. We would need to see Johns circuit to be sure.
I still prefer the other method which is to crystal lock the GS with just the one box. Mine will lock at 16,18,24 & 25 FPS which will cover both Pal and NTSC ie 50 & 60 cycles which is what is important here.
Jim, you need to be able to vary the motors speed on either the projector or the video source but this is not possible on the ST or on your video source so I think that you will have to give up on this idea. Finding a GS is really the only answer.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 26, 2004 03:25 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have heard of sync' pulse working with NTSC but it certainly won't work with Keith's circuit as that is built for PAL signals.

There is a US version of the Cresta Interface for the GS-1200 and that combined with a Cresta VS2000 should give the desired result. Having said that, God only knows how NTSC will sync' up because it's 60hz so I have no idea how that is divisible into two pulses = 1 frame. Doesn't make any sense to me but I'm sure collectors in America have claimed to have successfully pulse sync'd.

Yes Tony, I'm in central London. Russell Square to be precise. Kevin's hoping to come over shortly. I'd better get a pulse show together.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 26, 2004 06:18 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
gues I will have to find a GS thanks for all your input guy's [Big Grin]

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jim schrader
"Let's see 電o I have that title already?"

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 26, 2004 08:16 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having said all this there is an alternative. I used to re-record all my films on a Chinon SS-1200. When in good condition these machines have a very accurate variable speed control (as do others). However, due to the variations in the speed to which different films are transferred to video it is not possible to just set the machine to 24fps for one film and expect that to match the next. There are always slight differences and so minor adjustments are necessary.

Sometimes it is possible to go through a whole 600ft reel without the need for a stop, reverse and re-start but this is quite rare. Of course, it's all the stopping, reversing and starting that knackers the projector and mine has paid the price for that - it needs a new motor. Very good recordings though, probably better than a couple of my Elmo's.

With the present standard of sound on recent releases I'm not doing nearly so much re-recording so all the equipment has been getting a bit of a rest.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted January 27, 2004 08:17 AM      Profile for James N. Savage 3     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim!-Hold everything.

I've been re-recording super 8 stuff for years, and in most cases, all of the extra equipment is not needed. The Little Rascal shorts are very easy to record directly from the VCR or DVD machine.

I'm not familiar with your projector, but I use the Sankyo 800 and all I do is run a cord from the audio out on the VCR to the AUX IN on the projector.

In most cases, the Video/DVD will run 95-100% the same as the projector. If not, you will have to stop occassionaly to let the projector or Video catch up. Patience is required.

The only difficult part to me is with the titles. Since Blackhawk made there own, you can't really match the picture up until after the credits. What I do is start recording the titles from the video, then when the picture fades in after the credits, I stop both units and find a specific point to synchronize from (works best with the first "cut away" scene).
Once you get everything running together, it usually works fine, but you need to keep watching to make sure they stay lined up.

Good luck! Have fun with it!! Nick.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 27, 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
James,

There are some major differences in video equipment between the US and Europe. Here we have NTSC 30fps and film is transfered at 24 fps and fields are repeated to get the 30 fps video rate. BUT the sound is transfered at the same speed it was recorded. Thus if you can lock your playback device you get the right pitch and synch for re-recording.

Now in Europe PAL is running at 25 fps and film at 24 fps. When we do video transfers we just transfer the film "fast" in other words it runs about 4 per cent faster in PAL than NTSC. (That's 2.4 minutes per hour.)

Now if you synch up a video source to film you wind up tranfering at 25 fps to maintain synch. That's fine UNLESS we've put a pitch correction on the PAL transfer. I usually do since it keeps the voices in proper pitch and the music on key. The tempo is still faster however. Now if you use the pitch corrected source for the 25 fps transfer and then play it back at 24 fps you'll get a slow down of the sound in pitch while mainting synch. If you have access to a pitch corrector you could "fix it in reverse".

But synch is not the only problem. I haven't heard anyone talk about the pitch correction issue here.

John

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 28, 2004 02:33 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting. Some cinemas run projectors slightly fast to shorten the running time of films if the schedule is running late. Does anyone notice? Do they hell?

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 28, 2004 07:29 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the info James while I was watching the film with the video to make surew there was no editing a couple of times I noticed the voices were right on score and that was the first run but before long one went out of sync, we have a varible autotransformer at work that we use for fan control it works on 110 you just plug in your source and you can control how fast or slow you want it wouls this work on my vcr, I do not want to try it on my elmo for fear it may wreack havic on it any thoughts the only thing i can think of is if there taliking and the vcr gets ahead and I slow down the vcr slightly the sound will be caught in the recording, like you say patience is required [Big Grin]

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jim schrader
"Let's see 電o I have that title already?"

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