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Author Topic: Re-recordings with a PC
Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 01, 2006 05:14 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio, Are you switching the ESS switch to the ESS position and then adjusting the level so that the meter needle sits in the middle.

One thing....are you sure you have a sync pulse coming out from your PC on that lead.

What you could do to check is plug that lead into one of the Elmos line inputs with the vols down low and then turn up the line input level to see if you can hear any sound. It should sound like a fast purring noise.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted July 03, 2006 02:20 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Are you switching the ESS switch to the ESS position and then adjusting the level so that the meter needle sits in the middle?

Absolutely yes... the level doesn't move at all

quote:
One thing....are you sure you have a sync pulse coming out from your PC on that lead.

What you could do to check is plug that lead into one of the Elmos line inputs with the vols down low and then turn up the line input level to see if you can hear any sound. It should sound like a fast purring noise

I tried also this. If I connect to the ELMO audio input I can easily hear the square audio signal...

Useless to say if I use the Pedro's box it works, so there is no defect in the projector... I'm getting crazy, and I don't know where the problem is... I even used exactly the instruction from Joerg to create the square audio signal (CoolEdit 96 etc..)

It doesn't matter...

Flavio

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted July 03, 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

have you connected the correct pins at the soundcard's end of the cable? (E.g. are you using a stereo- or a mono-connector?)

Jörg

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 02:35 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jörg,

I have a mono connection to the soundcard but... I created a STEREO square signal in order to avoid to care which connection was active.

Flavio

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 08:43 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's probably it right there. Plugging a mono jack into a stereo plug will create a short-circuit on one channel (I think it was the left one) and that might affect the other one as well. Definitely use a stereo jack... best to connect only one of the two stereo channels (doesn't matter which one) to the ESS input.

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 09:49 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan, this is connector I'm using, plugged in the soundcard

 -

and the mono audio cable is connected to only one RCA of this adaptor, while on the other side of the same cable I have the 6 DIN connector to plug into the ESS port of the ELMO.

Do you think this is still an issue?

Thanks, Flavio

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 10:15 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I see. That should work perfectly. [Smile] As long as you're not trying to sync the GS1200 to your audio signal while recording the square pulse on the film's magnetic stripe, that is. (Did you check to make sure?) [Wink]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Joerg Polzfusz
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 815
From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted July 04, 2006 10:34 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

you can still confuse two pins or have a non-working adapter [Wink]

Jörg

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 10:52 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jörg, I checked and checked the connections and they are correct (assuming the PIN numbering provided by Joerg at the DIN input on the ELMO is correct too!)

My guess is that the problem could be in output of the soundcard...
I don't know why, but some cards have a specific LINE-OUT output distinct from the SPEAKER output. This is not my case where I'm using the SPEAKER output: the manual of the card tells this is a SPEAKER/LINE-OUT output i.e a combined output, and I am not sure this is good for the scope.
In general a LINE-OUT output is not affected by rotating the audio volume level, while instead, a SPEAKER output yes!
Is it possible the electrical signals are different?

What do you think?

Flavio

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 12:59 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just about any consumer-level soundcard I've ever, uh, heard of has line-out jacks only, even if they're labeled as speaker jacks (confusing but probably referring to self-powered speakers which still expect a line-level input).
So I have two questions for you:

1. Are you using the same output on your soundcard that you normally use to actually listen to your PC's sound?

2. When following Joerg's wiring diagram (photo showing the ESS jack) did you take into account that the notch on the jack is located to the left rather than the bottom? In other words, looking at the inside of your DIN plug (where the wires are soldered) and with the notch at the bottom, are your wires connected to the two pins to the right? (The pin closest to the notch would be pin 5, the one above it pin 4.)

Now I went over all this in my head several times and I think I got it right... but there could still be user error involved... Check again, and again and again [Wink] Sometimes one can make a mistake and not notice it for a long time until one day, all of a sudden, it stares you in the face and you smack yourself for not seeing it sooner. That happens to me more often than I want to admit. [Wink] Seeing as that everything is otherwise working, I see no other explanation why the syncing is failing - unless you did the software side of things wrong (i.e. square waveform not playing in an infinite loop, or not playing along with the audio signal, or what-have-you)...

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 05:46 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ian and everyone who was so kind to support me in this... I finally had the projector working!

Infact the only last thing I could do was to use another soundcard and now it works!!! I would like understand now why...

Going back to Ian's questions

quote:
1. Are you using the same output on your soundcard that you normally use to actually listen to your PC's sound?
Yes, I used the same output.

quote:
2. When following Joerg's wiring diagram (photo showing the ESS jack) did you take into account that the notch on the jack is located to the left rather than the bottom? [...]
Absolutely yes!

Again thanks to everyone!!!

Flavio

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted July 04, 2006 07:43 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now THAT's what I call a mystery! [Eek!] Another soundcard was the solution, huh? I too would like to know what the cause of the problem was... but anyway, glad you got it working now! [Smile] [Smile]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Joerg Niggemann
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Germany
Registered: May 2006


 - posted July 05, 2006 04:38 PM      Profile for Joerg Niggemann   Email Joerg Niggemann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio, great to hear that it works for you now. The only reason I can imagine is the output level of your soundcard(s). A "proper" input signal for the ESS circuit should have a 5V TTL level, which isn't a typical line out level for sound devices. So in any case, we provide a "non standard" signal to the ESS input. This seems to work in many cases, but apparently we can also run into problems...

Please let us know about the 23,97Hz performance. I was only able to prove that the GS runs at 23,97Hz using a frequency counter, but didn't make a real test with a DVD.

Joerg

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 05, 2006 05:29 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio, Great news. Let us know how you get on. Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 06, 2006 02:43 AM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An article on this inovative idea would make great reading in "Small Format" and/or "Film For The Collector" magazine... [Wink]

Mike [Cool]

--------------------
Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted July 10, 2006 11:08 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi All,
sorry for the delay...

I'm not sure to have fully understood what kind of proof should I do with 23.976..

Joerg confirmed to have measured the speed of the ELMO controlled by the Square Audio signal configured to produce this kind of frequency, so please, what you would expect I should have to try?

Furthermore I don't have any Ntsc DVD version of a related Super 8 movie, so how can I answer your doubts?

thanks
Flavio

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 10, 2006 12:57 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, yes that is a problem as you would need to run an NTSC DVD (region 1) in sync with a super 8 feature to see if it will hold in sync for say the first 20 mins.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 21, 2010 03:27 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am bringing this topic back up because I think many forum members are probably more adapt to using computer technology now than they were four years ago. Especially me. [Big Grin] I am going to attempt this as soon as I make the cable that connects the PC line to the ESS in.

Thanks, Joerg. [Smile]

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Alexander Vandeputte
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Belgium
Registered: Nov 2009


 - posted March 07, 2010 10:40 AM      Profile for Alexander Vandeputte     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Have just checked this out on my version 1 GS1200 using CoolEdit and indeed it does work !
Is it correct that when set to ESS and 24fps, the projector can only be steered within the -2 / +2 frames range? Meaning: When I provided the machine with a 18hz signal, it did not seem to run at 18fps.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted March 30, 2010 04:58 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alexander, a little slow on the draw here. When set to ESS, the speed control shouldn't need to be moved from center when the Elmo is set to 18 fps with an 18 pulse or 24 fps for a 23.976 pulse. I have done 15fps transfers and found that the speed and level knobs need to be adjusted to not put stress on the ESS circuit (evidenced by a jumping needle).

Guys, bear in mind that the odd NTSC framerates are derived by dividing the source frame rate by 1.001, which for 24 results in 23.976023976... This makes it easier to calculate any framerate to coincide with NTSC video. Better yet, at 48Khz for an audio sampling rate, 23.976 is absolutely locked down if your pulses fall exactly 2,002 samples apart. Then, if you've ripped the sound into your computer from the audio source, so there are no analog steps involved, sync should be a cinch.

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 28, 2011 06:51 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg, did you generate the square signal with Adobe Audition?

I have CyberLink DVD Suite, but I can't find where to generate a tone. I have a program called Audacity win which I can generate a square signal. How would I get a square signal through my DVD Suite editor?

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 20, 2011 07:34 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Update!

I have downloaded Adobe Premier 4 video editing software. I captured a few minutes of video. Using a free recording software called Audacity I was able to generate a 25hz square signal. I save the square signal in an mp3 file. When I reopen Adobe Premiere 4 I import the 25hz square signal from the mp3 file into the video project where I can play the video and the square signal simultaneously. In the Adobe mixer I can run the square signal out the left side out and the mono video audio out the right side separating them. when I make the ESS sync cable I will report back with the recording results. If this mono project works I'll try a stereo configuration.

When constructing the sync cable I will have a 6 pin din on one end and an RCA mono on the other end. Referring to Joerge's wiring diagram above I am going to connect the wires from pin 4 and 5 to the two RCA poles. Number 4 going to the plus(tip) and 5 to the other. Hop e this is correct. If I am successful I will be able to rule the world!!!!!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa.................cough!cough!

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted October 14, 2011 12:51 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Dan, wondering if you ever got your cable to work and any successful sync? Although you mention a 25 Hz square wave, which if you're using an NTSC disc from here in the USA, your projector will run too fast, making the sound fall behind.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2015 07:10 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This is a 9 years old post, but NOW it becomes so important for us because Pedro box is no longer available.

Moreover, software for audio/video are available better than 9 years ago but the trick introduced by Joerg is still valid.

So could the moderator stick this topic on top so we never loose this once we need it.

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 29, 2015 08:09 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think we should take posts that reflect common problems and copy 'em into a FAQ directory.

The Classics:

-Why can't I get sound out of my Elmo (switches, jacks)
-How do I clean the soundhead on my Eumig (the Adsett Procedure)
-Why does my ST-1200 start so slow? (Lubrication, shutter rim...)
-Eumig Hum (Hum Buck Coils...)
-Can I wedge a 1000W lamp into a GAF silent projector (....no.)

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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