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Author Topic: And my AGFA print also get faded now... : -(
Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 25, 2008 01:04 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guys,

There many members here are very sure that AGFA print will always hold the color forever.

But my experience does show the opposite and it should be learnt that AGFA print can also fade.

My find was started after seeing that all my Universal 8 (on Kodak SP and Eastman) have faded to nice red wine color, so I looked for my lovely AGFA print that I believe many members this forum have it.

It is "Raiders of the lost ark" (1 x 400", Marketing Films).

I still remember first time I received this film in Sydney in 1997 and I got surprised with the colors which were so beautiful. That's why I made a note on the box that it has "Excellent" color.

I played it many times until 2003 and still found the beauty of its colors (ps: actually it's faded a little but be assured by many mails that AGFA would not fade, I still felt that it was "Excellent").

But after 2003 I didn't see this film and just took it last nigh and the result was: it has faded... not red, not pink but some colors have gone. You can see from my pictures below:

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Please note that my auto digital camera did an automatic color correction on below pictures so it looks now fine for us, but actually it was warmer than this.

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The fade of my film is much clearer on the below 3 pictures because the scene was outside and brighter.

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and when it came to a darker scene, fade was more horrifying !!

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So to sum up, AGFA and (perhaps) Fuji from that era can also fade, DEPEND ON where you live.

I live in Indonesia where the climate is tropical (28-32 Celsius)and humidity is high (80-95%). I cannot have a speial cold storage for the films (like Osi does), so I store them on a wood shelf. And they got faded, eventually.

This come to a conclusion for those who live in (or buy films from) Queensland (Aus), Darwin (Aus), Perth (Aus), Indonesia and south East Asian countries, Latin American countries, California (??) will most highly get faded films.

You guys, live in UK are so lucky due to your cool climate and low humidity. that is why the fading process is so slow. But eventually it will.

I don't know what will happen to the latest LPP print. I have a couple from Derann, and have to wait until another 4-5 years.

We'll see.

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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 - posted August 25, 2008 06:14 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert, My copy of this print is also on Agfa stock and is still looking superb for colour rendition.

I think your right about storage conditions as Heat and humidity can cause colour film to fade even stocks which normally wouldn't or would do so very slowly.

Really you need to keep these prints in a cool climate but obviously from what you say this is not practical.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted August 25, 2008 09:43 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert,

Just for hobbies sake, I looked at my "Raiders 400ft" and, like Kevin's, the colours are smashing, but as you said, yours have obvious fade. Very sad.

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Winbert Hutahaean
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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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 - posted August 25, 2008 10:25 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Osi, and the more heartbreaking one is I had a video tape of of this very reel took in 2001 when I got amazed with the quality of this print.

Last night, I played on this video and found how used the beauty of this film to be. But now...

So, ironically, it is now even funny for me that if I want to see this digest in good colors .... I have to use VIDEO ... [Mad] but [Big Grin]

This makes me feel to get luckier if I now start collecting B/W films so there is no need to afraid of fading process.

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted August 26, 2008 10:08 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That was a point I made to myself Winbert, about black and white films, you don't have to worry about fade.

Strangely enough, I really love the fight to find good prints of movies in color. "Hoppity Goes to Town" was one of those struggles. I went through three bad prints before I lucked into two great prints at one time, and that made the struggle to get them all that much more victorious.

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David Kilderry
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 - posted August 27, 2008 12:45 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Winbert, high humidity is not good, but worse than high temperature is big variations.

As you know here in Melbourne it can range from 42 degrees celcius (107) in Summer to cool in winter. Like you Winbert, I had films that were fine for years then go off very fast.

One of the best is a Walton Tom and Jerry I bought brand new in 1979 and it is still very good. My Jolson Story kept nrext to it over the same time is completely shot however. As we've said before, there are so many variables.

David

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted August 27, 2008 03:37 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Whilst we in the UK constantly complain about our weather and take holidays abroad "to get the sun" the climate is obviously better for film storage!

Today the temperature is 66F (20C) and the humidity is 70%. The latter is a little up today due to cloudy sky and some periods of light rain.

My films mostly live in the house but the larger 1600' spools of 16mm sound live in my garden shed. In the summer months each morning I open the door and window for fresh air. The films live horizontally in cardboard boxes on steel racks with the top boxes having a layer of kitchen foil to reflect any direct heat from the roof.

In winter the shed has a low-wattage heater controlled by a thermostat set to 10C. This is to remove any dampness in the air.

I use the words "summer" and "winter" but for the last few years there doesn't seem to be much difference between the seasons.

My films seem to keep very well in these conditions.

--------------------
Maurice

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted August 27, 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ya see folks,

Now there's a person who knows how to love his films, (not that we all don't tend to do our best)!

But then, I really don't think any of us are really to blame. After all, back in the heyday of Super 8, there was no fade, (that I know of) It really didn't become an issue until, when? The late eighties or early 90's?

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted August 27, 2008 02:52 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All my Agfa S8 film prints still look great after many years here in Florida where it is hot and humid for 6 months of the year (although the films are in an air conditioned house). Most of my MGM, Fox, and Universal 8 digests have faded badly.
My 50 year old standard 8mm Agfa-Gaevart camera films have all faded totally to pink. Standard 8mm Kodachrome from the same period still looks pristine.

--------------------
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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted August 28, 2008 05:08 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My standard 8 Wedding film was shot on Gevacolor in 1959 and the colour is still unchanged.

--------------------
Maurice

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted August 28, 2008 09:51 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You know, hearing about all these old color film processes, (Gevacolor, Kodachrome), makes me wonder if, when Eastman color first came out, that it was more for the sake of cost cutting that it came about. I'm betting the old color formats that hold up so well, (Cinecolor, for instance, which STILL, after 70 years, looks great), were also more expensive to process and manufacture ...

... but you just can't "fudge" on quality. Sometimes high quality is that way because of the cost that goes into it.

A lot of the cartoon studio's (Warners included) to save on thier budgets, used lower cost forms of color, and even when those cartoons are restored, the color palette is still muted compared to original Technicolor processed color.

In a documentary entitled, "Glorious Technicolor" (I'm sure some of you have seen it), a studio photographer was first working with Eastman color, and he noticed that the womens lips had the color of liver. He then took various shades of lipstick to see if he could correct the problem, and upon inspecting the newly shot and processed Eastman color stock, the lips were still turning out various aspects of "liver".

Winbert does have a great point about AGFA. I believe that those who manufactured the original bad fade eastman, even for the Hollywood studio's, knew of it's fade possibilities, but it was so cost saving, that Hollywood moguls, who were desperate to cut costs wherever they could, (especially in the fifties and sixties, when they were having problems), were willing to toss a blind eye to the eastman problem ...

... after all, back then, you could perhaps liscense your feature film to TV here and there, and perhaps re-release a great film from the past in theaters once again, but no one had any idea that they could release thier vast catalog on VHS, Laserdisc, DVD and now Blu-ray!

Just like with the logic that no doubt went into the optical sound Super 8, (short run on the airlines, then destroy the prints), they felt that the prints would only be needed for a short shelf life.

... and this brings me back to Winberts point ...

I do wonder that, even with the "expected" Lifetime of viewing enjoyment with L.P.P. or AGFA, perhaps those developers of these film stocks in the first place, know something that we don't? Perhaps our mighty AGFA stock will disinigrate a lot earlier than we would have hoped?

It is a worrysome thought.

I do believe that, with the proper storage, even the worst film stocks will hold up rather well, but it takes dedication on our parts, becoming the unknown film preservationists for a future generation, so that our grand children or perhaps great grand children, who have been no doubt brought up with "Holographic projection" reality like movies of the future, will have a very rare glimpse at what film-making and enjoyment once was!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted August 28, 2008 11:27 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Around 1949, Kodak introduced its first 35mm colour negative stock, 5247. To make a release copy, the negative was contact printed with Kodak positive stock 5381.

This process came to be known as Eastmancolor.

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Maurice

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted August 28, 2008 11:40 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Osi,
I also have the 'Glorious Technicolor' feature, which is on the 2-disc DVD issue of 'Robin Hood'. A fascinating documentary indeed, which showed that Technicolor was really a miraculous process. Herbert Kalmus was a genius. Expensive as hell, but nothing else ever came close, Technicolor reigns supreme. Just look at the pale washed-out color of today's feature films.

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Osi Osgood
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 - posted August 28, 2008 01:47 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree Paul, though sometimes the pale washed out look of todays film can by stylistic, (as in the case of "Minority Report" or "Saving Private Ryan", both Speilberg films that were very influential in the look of a lot of films today.

You know, the strange thing about Technicolor, is that I always felt that technicolor looked "ultra real", in that it was almost TOO colorful. Real life looked pale compared to a technicolor film.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted August 28, 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The thing about Technicolor was that they had complete control of the color during the printing stage. So they could pretty well get any 'look' that they wanted. The color could be tailored for the type of film they were making. In the case of musicals, they usually went for full color saturation with bright vivid colors, and this added greatly to the uplifting feel of the great musicals. Imagine 'Singin' in the Rain' in Eastmancolor - just would'nt be the same film.

--------------------
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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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 - posted August 28, 2008 06:57 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
What we have to remember here is that we are looking at different technologies.
The dyes is Technicolor and Kodachrome are introduced after exposure and are applied during processing so different dye technology could be used. The dyes were of a type which simply dont fade.
In the Eastman, Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Konica and Ilford colour products the dyes are in the film in the form of colourless couplers. These become the colours we know and love or hate during processing.

Agfa and Ilford used couplers which were water soluble and Kodak went down a slightly different route of having solvent based couplers as did Fuji and Konica (more on them in a moment).

When I joined Ilford's colour R&D in 1970 I saw that we could do accelerated aging tests on ours and our competitors products. I saw results which showed at the time that the Kodak films were the most unstable of all the colour products on the market. This was not only with their motion picture products but with slide, neg and colour print materials.
Have you guys looked at any early colour prints to see what they look like now? Kodak prints I have are now also red but my Ilford and Agfa are still good.

Kodak is and was a large company and was THE force to be reckoned with. They had the money to do the advertising so people bought their products but at the time they had crap products. The smaller companies had very good products using differnt technology but Kodak was a force to be reckoned with [Eek!] A market leader [Frown]
I have colour prints, slides and Std 8 cine film on both Agfa and Ilford materials and they still look good which is more than I can say for my Kodak colour prints and Ektachrome slides. Some of my Ektachrome slides are now wine coloured which really makes me feel sick to look at them.
What I am trying to say is that the big K back then didnt have the best colour products and there is not a lot you or I can do to stop the worst happening.

Five years ago my Father passed away and my Mother wanted some negatives reprinted of my Father. I dug out some 35mm negs we had and sent them off to a prof lab here in the UK. The negs which were on Ilfocolour MkV and V1 printed ok but the negs on Kodacolor 11 printed with what we call crossed curves. They had magenta shadows and green highlights. The lab didnt charge us for the bad prints as they said they couldn't do anymore with them.
We moan about the movie films but maybe we need to look at the other colour processes of the time! [Frown] The Point I'm trying to make here is that we moan about our release prints which have faded but what about the neg origination?

I was in the labs one day (late 70's) when I was told that there would be quite a few Japanese guy and gals looking at what we were doing and how we were doing it....yes Ilford sold technology to Konica [Eek!] and about the same time I heard that Fuji were doing similar things with Agfa. Both companies took our products to the next level and sold film material with little or no fade. Ilford in the 80's actually sold Konica product under the name of Ilfocolour and Ilfochrome and the Konica colour paper print products for Europe were all produced at the Ilford plant in Switzerland. Konica were giving a 100yr Guarantee on their print materials and even back stamped their material as being 100 years.

It wasn't till the 80's that the big Giant Kodak caught up and found Cyan couplers which didn't fade at the rate of knots as they did in their earlier products.

Bloody Hell! it's beginning to look like I could write a book on this subject! but then I was in Colour R&D at the time and it was a real eye opener!

Poor storage conditions on any coupler based dyes WILL cause these types of dye to fade quicker and some quicker than others. If you have SP then it would be better to keep your prints very cool but without any high humidity. Freeze but take the air out. The only Archival products are Kodachrome, IBtech and Cibachrome.

Kev.

--------------------
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Bill Brandenstein
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 - posted August 28, 2008 07:35 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kevin, do you have any idea if any of those products were marketed in the US as a Foto-Mat product? The only time I didn't shoot Kodachrome was on a vacation once when we weren't able to get to a "normal" store, and one of those little drive-up Foto-Mat booth stores had K40-compatible film. Not quite as sharp or colorful, but 30 years later there is no discernable fade. (Thanks for a great read, by the way.)

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted August 28, 2008 08:17 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kev, that was a great post. Interesting that Ilford were way ahead of Eastman Kodak. And they sold there technology to the Japanese! [Mad] My wife and I are currently going through family photos stored in shoe boxes! I notice that all the Polaroid instant picture prints have gone almost totally red.

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Osi Osgood
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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted August 28, 2008 11:07 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Kev.

I noticed that you mentioned IB Tech and another, but no mention of L.P.P. or AGFA as "archive material". Do you know something we don't? In other words, are the prints that we have on L.P.P. or AGFA going to fade a lot sooner than we may think, or are they just fine for the long haul, (with proper storage)?

and yes ... a good read!

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Faulkner
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 - posted August 29, 2008 06:36 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, The special processes like IB etc used solid dye particles (pigments) which attached themselves to the silver in the Black and White positive before the silver is removed. That by the way is put in layman terms as it's more complicated than that.

The std colour films and prints use colour couplers which produce chemically formed colours. These are not as stable as the pigmented dyes. Temperature and Humidity are the colour coupler formed dyes worst enemy which of course brings us back to the original thread.

Why do you think Kodak called it Low Fade Print Positive (LPP) instead of No Fade Print Positive? because they know it WILL fade eventually but not at the rate their earlier technology did.

I bet like Paul you are all now going through your prints and slides to see what state they are in [Eek!]

Going back to Konica and their 100 yr print materials I wonder if you will be able to play your DVD's etc in 100 yr's time? somehow I doubt it. I have had Laserdiscs which have become unplayable and there were early CD's which also suffered the same fate of oxidation of the aluminum layer so maybe film will now outlive the modern digital film formats!

Kev.

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted August 29, 2008 07:14 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Which raises the question as to why Kodak abandoned their very best ever product - Kodachrome? Did it all come down to cost?
Incidentally, I can understand the process of black and white photography but color photography, in any form, is miraculous to me. And the Technicolor process, where relief images are formed for the reception of cyan, magenta, and yellow dyes, just blows my mind. [Eek!]

--------------------
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David Kilderry
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 - posted August 29, 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, yes my contacts at Kodak told me the cost of the building in Switzerland that housed the complicated Kodachrome processing plant, and was intregal to the building, was the main reason. It could not be moved or rebuilt economically.

All the other film based products that were housed originally in the same building were closed or moved as sales diminished. They did not want to cease Kodachrome in a perfect world.

They did not abandon Super 8, as witnessed by the 64t release, as believe it or not even in this day there is still profit in all of their motion picture formats: Super 8, 16mm, 35mm and 65/70mm for 15/70 IMAX.

I understand that LPP has a 99 year no fade life, but I have not seen this advertised and as Kevin states, Kodachrome is regarded as archival, yet not LPP. I may have the chance to speak with senior Kodak Rochester head office people at a conference I am attending next week.

David

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Raymond J. Santoro
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 - posted October 21, 2008 10:04 PM      Profile for Raymond J. Santoro   Email Raymond J. Santoro   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Regarding Super-8 film from Foto-Mat: It was sold under the "Focal" brand name as I recall and manufactured by Dynacolor Company in Brockport, NY (which was later purchased by 3M Company in Rochester, NY). I worked at 3M Rochester toward the end of their Super-8 manufacturing. Their final Super-8 product was a film to go in security cameras. It was manufactured in total dark and was spooled into the cartridges by a blind gentleman. The Focal brand looked really neat when observing it on 200' movie reels from the side. The Kodak products were always dark, but the Focal brand was "colorful" and you could tell immediately which brands were which.

Many of the people in my town worked at Dynacolor in Brockport, NY during their hey-day, and they developed movie film from around the US. I got into filming at the age of 13 when we were able to get large amounts of free movie film from Dynacolor. Because of my proximity to Rochester I got lots of freebies from Koadk too. I still have a machine (forget its name now) that Kodak came out with to transfer Super-8 onto video. The good ole days...

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Osi Osgood
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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted October 22, 2008 10:43 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Though I have not run into agfa stock fading, I have run into fading fuji, which took longer to fade, but did eventually aquire
a "purple" hue to everything.

Could the color loss on your agfa be due to the use of some cleaner that agfa stock doesn't respond well to?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Chip Gelmini
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 - posted October 23, 2008 01:30 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have the feature in scope and the colors are stunning. [Big Grin]

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