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Author Topic: Anyone want a film cleaner ?
Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 05, 2009 02:47 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
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When I first mentioned this project I said I wanted to bring it in for under $200 - and as promised I am .. for the first 25 units

Im calling it an 'Introductory Special'

Due to an increase in raw materials and other unexpected costs, the price will increase $50 after the 'Introductory Special' is over.

I just got finished emailing/pming all those that expressed interest, and if they each want one cleaner then I wont have enough units ( I only have enough stock for 15 units )

If all 15 go quickly then I will commence the next production run immediately, and that means approximately 4~8 weeks to complete the run. My vendors need to produce tooling which requires a few weeks.

For the price conscious do-it-yourselfer's I included technical drawings in the User Guide for the Adaptor and Handle Clamp, so they may fashion their own instead of purchasing directly ... so you can get everything you need for $199.95 as promised ( if you want to do some machining yourself )

No, it wasnt easy at all to keep the costs so low and still make it 'practical' - infact it was downright Hellish - that shows you how much I love film !

Pricing

Film-O-Clean for 16mm or Super8 ( specify film gauge when ordering )
$199.95 Special Introductory Price
$249.95 Standard Retail Price

Film-O-Clean Adaptor with captive screw
$39.95

Handle Clamp for 16mm/Super8
$39.95

Universal Bracket for Bench or other 'thruhole' mounting
$24.95

Universal Clamp for mounting on an independent fixture
$29.95

Extension for use with any clamp/bracket
$14.95 ~ $19.95 ( based on length )

Cleaning Media ( box of 8 rolls )
$14.95

Cleaning Media ( box of 20 rolls )
$29.95

Film-Tech FilmGuard
$29.95 each for one
$27.50 each for two

Package Deals

Cleaning Media ( box of 8 rolls )
Film-Tech FilmGuard
$39.95

Cleaning Media ( box of 20 rolls )
Film-Tech FilmGuard
$49.95

Film-O-Clean for 16mm or Super8
Film-O-Clean Adaptor
Handle Clamp
Extension ( 9" )
Cleaning Media ( 4 rolls )
$275.00 Special Introductory Price
$325.00 Standard Retail Price

Film-O-Clean for 16mm or Super8
Film-O-Clean Adaptor
Handle Clamp
Extension ( 9" )
Cleaning Media ( 8 rolls )
Film-Tech FilmGuard
$315.00 Special Introductory Price
$365.00 Standard Retail Price

Film-O-Clean for 16mm or Super8
Film-O-Clean Adaptor
Handle Clamp
Extension ( 9" )
Cleaning Media ( 20 rolls )
Film-Tech FilmGuard
$325.00 Special Introductory Price
$375.00 Standard Retail Price

(* edited filmguard pricing 5/20 )

[ May 20, 2009, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: Roy Neil ]

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 05, 2009 06:20 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,

Congratulations on designing and manufacturing the "Film-O'Clean"! Could you explain what the adaptor with captive screw is for?

Count me in for the Super 8mm model!

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted May 05, 2009 06:39 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This seems to be phenomenal. Yes, congratulations from Italy too!

--------------------
I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 05, 2009 08:01 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Doug and Gian [Smile] Its been a long road but Im happy with the final result

The Adaptor plate is visible in the photographs on the back left corner of the Film-O-Clean unit - you can also see it attached to the Extension Arm where it is mounted to the projector.

The Adaptor Plate allows for quickly attaching/removing Film-O-Clean to/from the Mounting Fixture. The Handle Clamp attaches to the projector; the Extension Arm attaches to the Handle Clamp; The Adaptor Plate is attached to the Extension Arm; Film-O-Clean attaches to the Adaptor by means by means of a captive screw on the Adaptor.

Not only does it allow you to easily attach/remove Film-O-Clean, it also provides a means to utilize a single Film-O-Clean unit on more than one projector and also on the rewind bench. That is another reason why the Mounting Fixtures are sold seperately in addition to being bundled in the 'package deals'

Here are a few more photos to help clarify the Adaptor Plate.

Assembled Handle Clamp with Extension Arm and Adaptor Plate.
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Rear View of Film-O-Clean to show mounting holes
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Handle Clamp et al mounted on ST1200HD
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Film-O-Clean attached to Adaptor Plate
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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

Posts: 425
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

- posted May 07, 2009 10:11 AM      Profile for Hans van der Sloot   Author's Homepage   Email Hans van der Sloot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Roy,

Great you finally managed get this cleaner in production.
You can count me in for one too.
Is it possible to change the cleaner from 8mm to 16mm by swapping the rollers?
I would like to use it for both formats, but rather don't have to buy 2 of them.

Hans

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 07, 2009 10:56 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,

Could you please send me an e-mail by clicking on the mail link? Thanks.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Tony Simonelli
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Cleveland, OH, USA
Registered: Oct 2008

- posted May 07, 2009 03:23 PM      Profile for Tony Simonelli   Email Tony Simonelli   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,
I'm definitely interested in ordering. Please email me when you get a chance.

Tony

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 07, 2009 03:35 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony,

Welcome to the Forum!

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 07, 2009 05:27 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony I tried to send you an email but the forums told me your email is being blocked either by the admins or yourself

Please feel free to contact me at your convenience by phone or email

Roy Neil
Neil Research Laboratories
Menlo Park, CA 94025
650 325 8480

Hans - Yes it is possible to convert from one film gauge to another. The Conversion Kit includes Two Rollers and the Main Drive Wheel with orings and set screw, the Allen Key for the Main Drive Wheel is already included with Film-O-Clean.

8mm or 16mm Film Roller $14.95 each
8mm or 16mm Main Drive Wheel $34.95 each
Conversion Kit for 8mm or 16mm $54.95

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

- posted May 10, 2009 01:03 AM      Profile for Dino Everette     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy
I definitely want one of these, but I am curious how long do the cleaning rolls last before you need to replace them. such as super 8 (1 roll = 25x400ft reels) or something to put it into perspective for the ongoing costs.

--------------------
"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 10, 2009 02:59 AM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Two spools of cleaning media are used to clean/lubricate both sides of film simultaneously

Spools provide 'approximately' 3~4 hours of cleaning time for 16mm and 6~8 hours of cleaning time for Super 8

Cleaning Media is rewound after it is depleted and used again - until completely worn/spent.

Typically the Cleaning Media may be rewound and reused more than 10 times before requiring replacement - in fact - Cleaning Media performs 'better' after initial useage, so replacing it after one use is NOT recommended.

I changed the Cleaning Media on the prototype after it had cleaned 80+ hours of film - and it didnt 'need' replacement at the time, I just wanted to try the new media I had fabricated.

But wait .. there's more ...

Cleaning Media is wide enough for 16mm film. Positioning the drive wheel strategically will allow Super8 users to use only half the media - so conceivably the media could be used half at a time, doubling its lifespan.

One box of 8 spools should last for quite awhile.

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Stewart McSporran
Master Film Handler

Posts: 272
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Registered: Nov 2003

- posted May 10, 2009 01:22 PM      Profile for Stewart McSporran   Email Stewart McSporran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy,

I'm curious about your statements regarding rewinding media rolls. On my 16mm modified Kelmar I've seen gunk piled up thick on the media after just one pass of a particularly dirty film. Indeed, almost all my films initially leave surprising amounts of dirt on the media. I'd be seriously concerned about re-using such dirty media.

I bought about 5,000 feet of approximately 1" wide media roll from Brad here at a very reasonable price, so I'm not concerned about frugality!

I've also got several dozen commercial 35mm media rolls if anyone's interested in making me an offer for them.

Stewart

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 10, 2009 09:21 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The film would have to be pretty dirty for the Cleaning Media to be exhausted after one pass - but I imagine its possible depending upon how much dirt/dust is present.

Certainly, the longevity of Cleaning Media is directly proportional to the amount of debris on the film. Cleaning Media will remove 'x' amount of dirt from film; If the Cleaning Media absorbs 'x' amount of debris in one pass, it will be fully exhausted.

Its very difficult to describe how dirty is 'too dirty' in terms of the Cleaning Media. I usually change the media once it has become substantially covered with debris. Typically with 35mm I rewind the media approximately 8~12 times before replacing with fresh media .. depending upon how dirty it is.

Cleaning Media will continue to absorb/remove dirt when dirty; and Brad Miller will corroborate that it performs better after being used once.

As I am rewinding the Cleaning Media I can visually determine if the Cleaning Media has reached 'the point' where it requires replacement - but trying to quantify that in terms of hours/feet of film is very difficult since its all relative to the amount of dirt on the films.

If I were a snake oil salesman Id tell you to change the media after one use and never rewind it, because it would mean Id sell a lot more - but thats not good advice and not the way I operate.

I understand the rationale behind the desire to always use fresh media, however in this case its counter-productive and wasteful.

I will try and get some photos of 'spent' Cleaning Media and post them.

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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

Posts: 425
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

- posted May 11, 2009 01:56 AM      Profile for Hans van der Sloot   Author's Homepage   Email Hans van der Sloot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Roy,

How can we place an order?
I like 1 cleaner + conversion kit.

Hans

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Freddy Van de Putte
Junior
Posts: 9
From: Ghent, Belgium, Europe
Registered: Mar 2006

- posted May 11, 2009 04:52 AM      Profile for Freddy Van de Putte   Author's Homepage   Email Freddy Van de Putte   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Congratulations, Roy!

This is very well made. It might be used as a stand alone cleaner, too.

Fred.

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Stewart McSporran
Master Film Handler

Posts: 272
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Registered: Nov 2003

- posted May 11, 2009 05:16 PM      Profile for Stewart McSporran   Email Stewart McSporran   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the detailed reply Roy.

I guess that the main difference is that if you're using the cleaner for every showing then the amount of dirt transferred will be much less than if you're just using it to occasionally clean a film between rewinds.

I'd appreciate the pictures as the most expensive part of cleaning for me is not the media roll but the FilmGuard that's soaked into it. So reusing would definately make more sense.

Stewart

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David Markus
Junior
Posts: 1
From: Kiel, Germany
Registered: May 2009

- posted May 12, 2009 01:16 AM      Profile for David Markus   Email David Markus   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Roy,

How can I place an order?
Please email me when you get a chance.

David

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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

Posts: 425
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

- posted May 12, 2009 02:10 PM      Profile for Hans van der Sloot   Author's Homepage   Email Hans van der Sloot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy, can you send me an email or post your email adress, because you have blocked the email option on the forum.

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 12, 2009 03:43 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I apologize everyone

My email isnt blocked but the forums wont let email be sent to me.

To contact me directly please email me

nrlabs 'at' comcast . net

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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

Posts: 425
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

- posted May 12, 2009 06:31 PM      Profile for Hans van der Sloot   Author's Homepage   Email Hans van der Sloot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roy, I tried to mail you but got this reply (of course I changed your mail adres below to avoid spam):

The original message was received at Wed, 13 May 2009 01:19:36 +0200

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<nrlabs at comcast . net>

----- Transcript of session follows -----
.. while talking to mx3.comcast.net
<<< 554 IMTA36.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net comcast 84.244.147.211 Comcast block for spam. Please see http://help.comcast.net/content/faq/BL000000
.. connection error: connection reset by peer/timeout

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 12, 2009 08:59 PM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I added spaces to throw the spambots and that was probably confusing

You have the "nrlabs@" part correct, but there were spaces in "comcast . net"

try "comcast.net" ( no spaces ) - sorry

-
update
-

Im fairly certain the 'send email to forum member' is not functioning as each time I try to send email to anyone it says the user has blocked their email address. I have verified in my profile that 'forum member may send me email' but I think it is failing.

David I tried to send you an email and was told the address is blocked

Again - anyone trying to email me please do so directly

nrlabs 'at' comcast.net

[ May 13, 2009, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Roy Neil ]

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Hans van der Sloot
Master Film Handler

Posts: 425
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2005

- posted May 13, 2009 03:36 AM      Profile for Hans van der Sloot   Author's Homepage   Email Hans van der Sloot   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Roy,

No, I used your mail correctly without blanks.
Do you have another mail adress where I can reach you?

Hans

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 13, 2009 04:50 AM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My email seems to be working, Im not sure why the emails you are sending wont get thru Hans.

Here is an alternate email address associated with the video editing software I have developed

videoglue 'at' hotmail.com

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

- posted May 13, 2009 12:37 PM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm either getting confused or getting the wrong message. Pardon my ignorance, but as I've never been involved with this cleaning method can someone give clear answers to two questions?

1. Is this method,using "media rolls" for actual film cleaning or just for keeping previously cleaned film clean?
2. Is the "media roll" a cleaner in its own right or must it be "soaked in Filmguard" to be effective?

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

- posted May 14, 2009 03:22 AM      Profile for Roy Neil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No problem Martin, here is an excerpt from the user manual.

Film-O-Clean is a self-contained film cleaner which mounts both on a movie projector to clean as you project, and on a bench for cleaning between rewinds.

Designed to be safe and effective, Film-O-Clean incorporates a film-driven mechanism to automatically advance the Cleaning Media so fresh media is always in contact with film. As film travels through Film-O-Clean, the Drive Wheel rotates to power the internal gearing which automatically advances the Cleaning Media.

Two independent spools of Cleaning Media remove debris from both sides of film simultaneously. When used during projection, one spool of Cleaning Media provides approximately 3~4 hours of cleaning time for 16mm and more than 6 hours for Super 8. Cleaning Media may be rewound and reused several times before requiring replacement. Film-O-Clean provides many advantages when used in conjunction with a film projector.

Several mounting fixtures are available and Film-O-Clean may be used on any film projector or between rewinds. This modular and portable design enables Film-O-Clean to be moved from one projector to another easily, and also moved to the rewind bench for stand-alone cleaning.

Film-O-Clean is crafted to strict tolerances using top quality materials to provide a smooth and near-frictionless movement which is safe for use with any film stock. Film endures more stress traveling through a film projector than through Film-O-Clean.

Film-O-Clean is designed to safely clean film wet or dry.

Film-Tech Cleaning Media may safely be used ‘Dry’, however, more effective cleaning results from pre-soaking the Cleaning Media with a Film Cleaning solution.

Film-O-Clean has been tested extensively with FilmGuard™ ( www.Film-Tech.com) and to a limited degree with FilmRenew™( www.urbanskifilm.com ) both with satisfactory results.

Pre-soak the Cleaning Media with a Film Cleaning solution and Film-O-Clean performs Wet-Gate style projection. Wet-Gate projection works to visibly hide base scratches by cleaning scratches and filling voids with solution. Additionally, Wet-Gate projection lubricates film for smoother projection and may help prevent film damage/scratches.

Constructed of Delrin™/Acetal, Norprene™, Buna-N™, Stainless Steel, Bronze and Aluminum, Film-O-Clean is compatible with a wide range of chemicals and solvents – however – please consult the MSDS for your particular film cleaning solution to determine chemical compatibility (http://www.msds.com/)

Whichever Film Cleaning Solution is used, please consult the product documentation for any pertinent information regarding proper usage and any restrictions.

IMPORTANT: Highly evaporative and volatile film cleaning solutions are NOT recommended for use in Wet-Gate projection. The toxic fumes associated with these highly evaporative cleaning solutions require extensive ventilation for use within an enclosed projection booth. Film cleaning solutions such as FilmRenew™ are best used between rewinds and with adequate ventilation.

FilmGuard™ is the recommended film cleaning solution for use in Wet-Gate projection and produces no toxic fumes or strong odors.

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