8mm Forum: Mounting 400' s on 1200's

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Topic: Mounting 400' s on 1200's

James E. Stubbs
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 104
From: Portland, OR
Registered: Apr 2007

posted March 31, 2009 11:47 PM

I have the 5 reel Hell's Angels. I finally got some 1200' reels and want to mount it. My problem is while I have one of the finest editors ever made, a Minnette, it doesn't have a sound head. SEW, I'm not sure where to splice each reel together. It looks like each one fades to black at the end. It seems safe to say I could cut it there. But where should I splice in the head of the next reel? I don't want a bunch of dead air, and I also don't want to cut off the beginning sound of the next reel. I want to splice reels 1-3 and 4-5. Now.... if I only had a 2000' reel that would fit my ST1200HD. That would be something! A completely uninterrupted feature! Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
James E

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James E. Stubbs
Consultant, Vagabond, Traveler.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 01, 2009 10:45 AM

If I was in your place, I'd run the film on the projector and then mark the end of the reel as it takes up on the projector for it's out point and the start of the next reel, etc. You could splice as you go or just mark and rewind and splice later.

Keep all your leader trims if you ever want to put it back on the original reels.

Normal 35mm prints were made up as 2000 foot reels for the exchanges (lab reels were 1000 so the first 2000 foot reel would be 1A & 1B, etc) and have sound pull ups so that splicing wouldn't result in dead sound in projection. 1000 feet of 35mm reduces to 400 of 16mm so a 1600 foot reel in 16mm would be the first 4000 of 35mm feature (exchange reels 1 and 2, lab reels 1A & 1B, 2A & 2B).

Making up the 8mm version to match the 16mm version would mean using 800 foot reels.

If it were me, I'd make reel one 8mm verion with small reels 1 & 2 and reel two with small reels 3, 4 & 5.

John

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 01, 2009 11:17 AM

John's final sentence is right on target. Following his advice, this allows you to cut the first leader from reel 1 and splice in 400 feet or less of trailers or cartoons. When done, both 1200 foot reels are maxed out.

Remember the reel is designed at max out @ 1/2 inch below the diameter of the reel. This allows for safe film transport and should prevent spillage. If your reels have footage guides as some do, note that 1200 ft is underlined and you should not pass the point of underline....however you could do it if you were careful.

As for the tails and where to cut the leads, I would like to point out something with the head end.

1. Begin by locating number 3 on the countdown.

2. After number 3, it should be dark without showing number 2 or 1.

3. The start frame should be the same as the distance between 4 and 3.

4. Simply measure out about 16 frames from number 3 and this should be the cut point. Use this step on the tails and you should be OK.

5. My steps here are only an estimate and can not be guaranteed as all prints are different. Also do you have a countdown leader or a clock leader? That would mean different too.

6. When possible, (example no fade outs or ins) always leave at least 1 or 2 original frames on the heads and tails. Save these leaders. Should you need to sell the print and reassemble back to shipping reels, these match frames confirm proper leads on proper reels.

7. If your print is NOT stereo sound, a Sharpie marker can be used (silver metallic fine point) to draw a line on the outside sprocket edge of the splicing tape. This grey line will show on the film pettern when on the reel. This marks your make up slice, easier to find if breaking it down later. Only mark the distance of the splice tape, 2 or 4 frames. DO NOT mark on the mag track.

8. Sharpie markers dry instantly and there is NO danger of magnetic head clog by using this application.

9. Since your splice is 4 frames wide or less keep in mind the reel flange might hide the silver marking. So make sure you are using a reel that can expose the silver line properly before breaking down.

10 The Sharpie marker application is recommended as too many times I've purchased used prints that were not broken down properly. Had the splices been marked and more attention paid to the breakdown, the print can be restored to it's original reel lengths. Have you ever wondered why optical prints purchased used have arrived on 4 or 5 over filled reels when most optical prints are released on 3 or 4 reels 600 ft each? Well, there you go!

~ CG ~

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James E. Stubbs
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 104
From: Portland, OR
Registered: Apr 2007

posted April 02, 2009 12:56 AM

Ah, such sage advice... I'm not really one to do a "show" per-se, but I am going to mount as you've suggested so that I can add in a cartoon etc later on should I want to. BTW it's a Thunderbird print

As for my leaders they are countdown, not clock. The lowest number visible on reel 1 is 4 (all upside down). Reel 2 has a 3. Fortunately Hervic put a frame measure on the base of the editor so I know that the first picture starts 30 frames after that 4. So I'm guessing since there's no 3 on reel 1 I want to measure 18-20 frames ahead of the first picture and chop away starting w/ the head of reel two for the first 1200'. Then the heads of reels 4&5 for the 2nd 1200' Where should I cut off the tail of reel's 1,3,4? The end of reel one is a fade to black. The opening scene of reel 2 has nothing to do w/ 1 and is a fade in. So presumably I could cut the tail of reel 1, 4 or so frames past the last frame in the fade. Then clip the head of reel 2 as you suggest at the "3" in the countdown and splice them together. If the tail/head of each reel are similar then it should be fairly straightforward to cut them together yeah? Let me know what you think.
Cheers,

--------------------
James E. Stubbs
Consultant, Vagabond, Traveler.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 02, 2009 08:54 AM

Those numbers are 16 frames apart since they are 35mm footage numbers (pic start is 12 feet from first frame of picture). Remember on the end of a reel that the sound is "pulled up" so when you cut the picture you won't be cutting sound off unless there's some tailing sound music cue (which there shouldn't be according to SMPTE change-over standards).

So if you have the number "3" VISIBLE then the first frame of picture would be 3x16 or 48 frames or 2 seconds later. Your sound track is pulled up 18 frames so don't cut it off and leave 24 frames of black so the sound will start with picture and one second after the splice passes through the aperture.

John

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James E. Stubbs
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 104
From: Portland, OR
Registered: Apr 2007

posted April 02, 2009 02:47 PM

Very cool.. Thanks. A careful physical frame count measured the "3" to the start of picture as exactly 46 frames. Although I can not find any evidence of this film ever being spliced perhaps this could account for 2 missing frames? Or that's just the way it was printed. In any case it seems I need to count 24 frames from start of picture and cut there. The reels all have SMPTE heads and tails, but this film was made prior to that standard. I'm sure the print of course was not. I'm pretty sure there's not any trailing music as after the last frame there's 90 frames of black (3.75 seconds) then "finish" 12 frames black "THUNDERBIRD FILMS" 3 frames black the handwritten "HELLS ANGELS #1" 1 black frame xxxx on the edge 2 frames "SMPTE UNIVERSAL LEADER" "Picture" a dot "FOOT" 2 black frames "Title reel" "End of picture" "reel no color PICTURE length roll subject" spread out over 5 frames then 2 frames black a bit of clear and that's it. Presumably if done correctly each reel of any given film should have this tail on it? As you can tell this is the first time I've mounted a feature and I don't want to screw it up. My 16mm features I just to changeovers. It's really kind of fun, but I don't have two suitable super 8 projectors and I'd rather have more viewing, less changing. This way if I run a show I'll have 60 min. Intermission 60 min. Should be fun.

I'm actually thinking about doing a "drive in" show in my local church parking lot. I have an FM transmitter that should do the trick! I just need to rent one of those big inflatable screens and perhaps convert my ST1200HD to Xennon! What do you think is the biggest area I could project w/ my ST1200HD w/ a standard f1.3 lens and an Osram Xenophot? Some day soon I'll get my hands on an f1.1 for a reasonable price....
Cheers,

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James E. Stubbs
Consultant, Vagabond, Traveler.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted April 02, 2009 03:53 PM

I usually just count 15 frames before the very first frame of the continuing feature, as the soundtrack starts somewhere arounf that number of frames.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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