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Topic: Projector runs too slow

Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted October 29, 2009 11:38 AM

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Christian,
That is what I would expect. The machine is driven by an induction motor, which is frequency sensitive. If you were to run it on 60Hz mains instead of 50Hz it would speed UP, so the mechanical switch setting for frequency would need to slow it DOWN when moved to 60Hz.
Martin.

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

posted October 29, 2009 01:04 PM

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Well then I'm back to square one in terms of fixing it. I'll change it back to 50hz then.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted October 29, 2009 02:31 PM

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Christian,
Below the motor, which is mounted vertically, there is a white plastic bush which has a spindle ini it. Thereis a similar one on the other side of the motor, The motor pivots about this spindle to provide forward and reverse drive on the drive discs.
If these bushes are cracked or the spindle stiff in the holes there will be insufficient pressure on the disc to make sure that the drive is not slipping.
You can try applying a little extra pressure by hand to the motor to press it against the disc; if this results in the correct speed check the pivots and the springs on the other side of the motor.

While I'm on this post, does anyone have the correct procedure for checking the adjustment of the stops for the motor pivoting?
Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Christian Bjorgen
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posted October 29, 2009 03:44 PM

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Cleaned the discs and motor now, also tried adjusting the pressure, but nothing helped.

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly tho, so I will take some more pictures of the parts in question tomorrow after work.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Christian Bjorgen
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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted October 30, 2009 11:33 AM

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http://bjoergen.org/vault/Motor.JPG

Here's the part in question, does it look right?

EDIT:

I also found these images:
http://www.tecnocast.org/foto/eumigrip/icona7.jpg
http://www.tecnocast.org/foto/eumigrip/icona6.jpg

This is from a similar machine being sold in Italy, and I cannot see any difference on the motors.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted October 30, 2009 01:37 PM

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In the image you posted the pivot bush is white and probably original, but it looks to be in reasonable condition.
In the second of the others, the bush is brown or black and is probably a later replacement. It also looks OK.
As long as the motor can be easily rocked to the left and right so that the drive wheel contacts the two drive discs firmly, you should be OK. Any stiffness indicates that the spindle needs cleaning and lubricating where it passes through the two bushes. If all bearings etc. have been cleaned and lubricated properly an the machine is still too slow, it could be that a proper set-up of the speed range is needed (see the earlier post on this); perhaps someone has played with this setting at some time.

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Christian Bjorgen
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posted October 31, 2009 11:07 AM

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The problem is that I don't have any experience whatsoever with this type of machinery, so I have no idea what defines "easily rocked to the left and right".

So far, I've cleaned the entire machine, but I haven't tried manually pressing the motor to the drive wheel (I'm scared of getting shocked!).

But! There's a brown clip on the motor (visible on my photo), is that the pivot bush? Is that thing even supposed to be there?

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
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posted October 31, 2009 11:56 AM

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Let's try a description of what you can do...

YOUR photo, that's the one YOU posted first. THe photo is actually on its side so when I say "to the right" , that's the BOTTOM of the machine, OK?

Now looking at the photo to the right of the Motor coil (the big block of copper wire) you will see a piece of WHITE plastic shaped like a triangle with the top cut off... that's the motor pivot bush In the middle of that there is a steel spindle... that's the motor pivot itself. There is another bush on the other end of that spindle. The motor is fixed to the spindle and is therefore able to rock backwards and forwards. When it rocks one way, the drive ball on the motor shaft touches one of the drive discs; the other way, it touches the other disc.

Now take a careful look at the photo. Just below the end of the copper coil furthest from the pivot you will see two bolt heads which hold the motor together. In the photo, one is dark coloured and the other light coloured, but in your machine they might not be that colour. Just concentrate on the one that is light coloured in the photo.
When the machine is in its normal working position and you are looking at it from the back of the machine, that bolt head is on the top of the motor and on the left. If you place your finger on top of that bolt head and press down the motor will tilt to the left and contact the left drive disc. You can do the same on the other side of the motor and it will tilt to the right and contact the other disc.
Now, with the back off, set the speed control to maximum (fully up), plug in, and switch the machine to "Forward". The motor will tilt to the left and the machine will run forward. For safety, with a piece of dry wood (or other insulator) press down on that bolt head. This will increase the pressure between the drive ball and the drive disc. If the machine speeds up, then under normal conditions there is slip between the ball and the disc.
Known causes: Grease on the ball or the disc, disc surface shiny or damaged, insufficient strength in the motor pivoting spring (behind the panel behind the main control knob), cracked motor pivot bushes, pivot spindle tight in the bushes, or friction in the various bearings of the main shaft or many gear wheels in the machine (not forgetting the reel drive clutches and the gears inside the spool arms)
Finally, friction in the Flywheel or pinch roller spindles will slow down the machine by placing a drag on the film, which will reflect back through the sprocket drives to the main shaft. But that will only occur with film in the machine.

Apart from all that, I have no other ideas!

Martin.

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted October 31, 2009 01:29 PM

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Wow! That's .... alot of information in one post!

I'll go try these different methods and get back to you [Smile]

[Smile]

----
UPDATE:

Motor ball and drive disks checked and cleaned, motor pivot and pivot bush looks OK aswell. Also tried applying manual pressure, but this only made it stop completely.

Did however notice one thing:
The motor ball can be manually "pushed" farther up, making the disc rotate faster and thereby increasing the fps (theoretically).
However; when I shift the control to "Forward", it slides back down to it's standard 24 fps position. Is this normal?

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004

posted November 02, 2009 12:00 PM

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Christian,

The reason the drive wheel moves up and down the shaft is because it is attached to the speed control switch located on the front of the projector. It will say 18 / 24. With the back off the machine, slide this switch up and down and make sure that the drive ball moves up and down the shaft. If it does, make sure that when you let go of the switch the ball does not drop down slightly by itself.

Craig

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I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 02, 2009 12:14 PM

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It's a synchronous motor, so it will spin at 3,000 RPM at 50 Hz and 3,600 RPM at 60 Hz.

So the "gear ratio" for 60 Hz would have to take more motor turns per main shaft turn than the one for 50 Hz.to keep the machine's final speed constant at either frequency, so at a constant frequency, trying the 60 Hz setting will make the machine run slower than the 50 Hz setting. (makes sense...)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted November 02, 2009 12:22 PM

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Yes, Craig, I'm aware of that, but the ball could move even further up manually, but it slides down when resuming play.

Anyway, I'm stoked as to what to do here. I might just try to get a refund for it and buy a new one, because I have no clue on how to fix it, and noone nearby deals with this type of machinery.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

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From: Old Coulsdon. Surrey. UK
Registered: Oct 2006

posted November 02, 2009 05:42 PM

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Hello Christian.

Just a thought before you go pulling the machine apart.
You never know it might be just a film fault.
Have you run this Star Wars print on another projector that you know has no speed problems?
If the sound is the same then it is a film fault.
If the sound is reproduced correctly then it is a fault on your Eumig.

--------------------
EIKI Ex 6100 xenon machine.

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted November 04, 2009 09:06 AM

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The fault is in the machine, because the speed is an issue on all my reels, and I've tried with eight different reels now.

I'm gonna try spraying some CRC lubricant into the various parts to see if that smoothens it up. That's safe to do right?

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Timothy Ramzyk
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From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
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posted November 05, 2009 04:26 PM

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It was kinda neat seeing YouTube footage of your Star Wars print being projected, is there a folder here devoted to people showing bits of their films on YouTube? I know it doesn't do them justice, but it's kinda fun to see.

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted November 06, 2009 11:15 AM

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Once I've fixed my projector I'll record all the reels I have and post, I can make a thread for it then [Smile]

[Smile]

Back to topic:
Does ANYONE have any idea what could do this? I've tried everything mentioned so far, short of lubing the machine or taking it completely apart.

--------------------
Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted November 06, 2009 12:50 PM

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Christian, If you really have tried all the simple suggestions others have posted for you ,try lubing the machine as previously suggested.If that doesn't cure it the only logical conclusion is that the basic speed range setting of your machine has slipped out of adjustment, and the machine's speed range needs to be set up properly.
Read Tim Christian's posts in this thread...
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001471# 000013
which includes the extract I copied in one of my posts. The information is explicit and detailed IF you have not tried the full reset as he describes, then perhaps you should do it?
If you have ignored it because it looks too complicated or difficult, then seek the aid of a good mechanical hobbyist.

Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted November 06, 2009 01:51 PM

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Thanks for pointing that one out, Martin, didn't see that post earlier [Smile]

[Smile]

I'll have a look myself, but I'm not too mechanically skilled, so I might just get my electrician friend to have a go at it.

Will get back to you with results [Smile]

[Smile]

--------------------
Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Christian Bjorgen
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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted November 07, 2009 10:46 AM

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I was reading Chip's "my new long play unit" thread, where he said: ".. take up is the hardest for a super 8 projector to do ..." and this made me realize/think:

The take-up spool arm on my projector is partially "broken". The part that you fasten the reel on is missing a small part, so the reel sometime "spins" on it rather than taking up film (if you get what I mean). Could this affect the speed of the projector?

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted November 07, 2009 12:23 PM

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No.
Martin.

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
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posted November 07, 2009 12:27 PM

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OK, I'll start looking at that other thing you mentioned then [Smile]

[Smile]

--------------------
Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Jeroen van Ooijen
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posted November 08, 2009 06:12 AM

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And how can i speed up my st1200HD it is ok,but it must a littlebit faster,i knoe how the movie sounds on my other projector,maby is that the problem.
But is there a pitchbutton or something? [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

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Super8 that's the greatest hobby in my life,i was 9 to have my first viewer from GAF.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 08, 2009 08:28 AM

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Hi Christian,

I have been following your thread and seems that problem is not solved. On the other thread you are thinking to repair it John White (in the UK). I don't think it will be economical considering the shipping cost v.v involved.

I would say that EUMIG is a good machine but not as simple as the Japanese projectors.

I would suggest you to find a little Japanese machine that is handy and was market largely (for easy spare parts). Most of Japanese machine will have a small pin pot for speed adjustment (but not for Elmo ST1200, sorry Jeroen).

At this time (although there is some negative comments), you can buy Chinon 330. I have this machine and I will say it is an incredible small machine. This machine has always been sold very cheap (around $50s) and even if yu buy from UK it is around GBP 20.

I bought this machine two months ago because the seller say that the speed is slowing down. I took a risk and it was sold for $25 at Ebay. When I arrived, I opened the back cover and did some adjustment .... and voila...it runs at correct speed now.

The Chinon lens (1.3) is also razor sharp.

The negative comment from the members say that it scratches films. But I didn't see any this harm thing in my machine. So I think it should be OK. And moreover I don't collect those rarity or expensive Derann's items. I just enjoy 8mm for my nostalgic memories and hobby (will not bring them to my death [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

)

Give a try,

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Winbert

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Jeroen van Ooijen
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From: The Netherlands
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posted November 08, 2009 08:46 AM

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No problem winbert,then i know that,everyday i learning more.
Thanks a lot [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

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Super8 that's the greatest hobby in my life,i was 9 to have my first viewer from GAF.

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted November 08, 2009 08:56 AM

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Jeroen, since I am also following the DJ things there is now a real time pitch changing available in internet. This software can pitch adjust the input sound and have the output in lower (or higher) speed.

Please google and do your experiment [Wink]

[Wink]

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Winbert

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