8mm Forum: Plastic spindle for a Beaulieu 708EL take-up reel anyone?

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Topic: Plastic spindle for a Beaulieu 708EL take-up reel anyone?

Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted June 29, 2014 10:57 AM

Good design, but I've seen this on another machine and not the beaulieu you mention, but where and what was it?. I still think the GS is as good.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 29, 2014 02:09 PM

whats the issue with the rear cover? Seems perfectly acceptable to me for what its purpose is?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted June 29, 2014 03:49 PM

It just don't look to be of the same quality as the rest of the machine, by comparison the GS 1200 got the balance just right for me. Its a personal thing, I guess, if I owned a Rolls Royce, I wouldn't expect the rocker covers to be plastic !!!. A great projector just let down by the quality details.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 29, 2014 03:56 PM

steel covers resonate and cause added running noise to the machine. This type of plastic deadens the vibrations from the two bladed shutter etc and to that end, I feel it was the perfect design choice especially as both loudspeakers are mounted to it. The rear cover on my ST 1200 acts like another amplifier picking out every last sound from within the inside of the machine. I hate it. I have tried fitting various gaskets etc but still it resonates throughout. Give me soft durable plastic anyday.

[ June 30, 2014, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted June 29, 2014 04:23 PM

I don't own an st1200 so I cannot comment on that machine, but I would say that my GS1200 is as quiet as the beaulieu, I have not noticed any added noise from the cover, given they both house a set of speakers, it just looks like the cover was made from recycled carrier bags. The rest of the machine is top notch and beautifully made where it matters.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted June 30, 2014 02:34 AM

It seems that only Dominique and I have problems where some spools will not fit on their Beaulieu.

In my case only certain spools will fit and for some films I have to re-spool before they can be shown. I paid a lot for the special large Beaulieu spools which I can't use.

Therefore I have made a decision to buy some replacement spindles even at their excessive price. Members have said that they have no problems with their replacements.

I have found out why ball-bearings have now been added, the following is in the manual:

Drawing SAV/100/50/8 dated January 10, 1979 explains the modification.
SUBJECT: Adding of ball-bearing on take-up and feed reel shafts.
PURPOSE; a) to avoid seizing (binding) b) to eliminate friction

No comment on why the shafts won't accept all spools!

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 30, 2014 03:00 AM

I don't know what type of hubs are on your PJ Maurice, but rest assured the new ones will be fine so long as you only fit the spools I mentioned plus of course, Posso spools, which is what they came with originally.The fit is excellent when new on the Beaulieu or Elmo large reels.

The statement you have given explaining the mod to now include two ball bearings per hub, taken from the service manual, just confirms what I already told you, which is, to assist with the added load of the large heavy reels, especially during rewinding.

All will become very apparent once they arrive Maurice and they really are childsplay to fit. Half hour tops!

The reason not all spools fit these projectors is because not all spools were manufactured to the standard spindle diameter size for super 8mm projectors. Elmo spindles have a much smaller spindle diameter size than any other machine I have ever owned by around 0.5mm on average in diameter. This is the reason why almost any spool fits the Elmo machines, albeit quite sloppily for some reels. Ironically 1200ft Taylor reels fit the Elmo machines quite well as the bore fits snugly on the spindle.

All quality Reels with a solid bore appear to have a standard bore diameter that appears to be universal. Ones which are not solid eg Taylor reels tend to have varying bore sizes from one batch of reels to another. Maybe by only fractions of a mm, but this nevertheless, effects the fit of the reel on the hub.

Finally, just to add another factor into the equation, the Beaulieu hubs clamping mechanism (the bits that broke off yours) will only work as intended if the THICKNESS of the spool is standard, if they are only very slightly thicker in depth, the spools spring off. This is another reason why some reels simply do not work on these machines. All the ones that I have seen coming off my new hubs are cheap non branded reels, which have a very slightly thicker depth to them when measured.

Due to the amount of discussion and general dissatisfaction witnessed on here of the original plastic hubs offered by Wittners, not to mention the very high cost of obtaining a pair, I am seriously considering having a batch of improved ones made at a small local engineering shop similar to the metal improved ones fitted to the HTI model. I am certain they would cost little more than the originals and, whilst I am happy with my plastic ones, they would no doubt be popular to other owners out there judging by the amount of comment.

[ June 30, 2014, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted June 30, 2014 10:13 AM

Andrew
Many thanks for the detailed answer. My hubs look quite standard as I compare them with photos. I have now ordered two hubs, my order was accepted on-line although Wittner seem to be on holiday until next Monday.
Your idea of local manufacture of metal hubs interests me very much, please include me if you do proceed.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 30, 2014 10:37 AM

I think I may very well do just that Maurice. A nice little project for me in the Autumn, I think!

Up until recently I had every opportunity to gain access to a lathe and could have done the work myself, however it is a sign of the times these days when a huge manufacturing org subs all of their engineering work out to small industrial units rather than doing it themselves in-house. Lathe now therefore deemed out of commission,very annoying for us old school!

Once they arrive just let me know if there are any issues Maurice as I can easily send you a job aid in the photographs I mentioned if you should happen to incur any problems or issues.

I hope you are happy with them Maurice when they arrive.

[ July 01, 2014, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011

posted July 01, 2014 12:47 PM

Maurice, that picture uploaded by Alan Rik with the later spool clips, as I mentioned I had seen these on another machine, that was a heurtier stereo model. I don't think any spares are available or that they fit your beaulieu, but wondered if they copied this idea from them.

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Josef Grassmann
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Hennef-Sieg, Germany
Registered: Apr 2005

posted July 01, 2014 01:53 PM

Plastic spindle is like a tube. Put an aluminium or brass stud with 1/4" thread into plastic spindle and glue it.
Use a knurled 1/4" screw with rubber washer. Now reel is hold in place and can´t fall off.

PS: For those friends wich prefer metric system might feel free to employ M5 or M6 Thread

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted July 01, 2014 02:54 PM

Never stopped spending on my 708 and it was silly little things that were so expensive to replace such as those reel mounts needless to say it went. Amazing for what was in its day such an expensive machine.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted July 01, 2014 03:37 PM

My design would be based on the retrofit like the HTI, perhaps with locking tabs like the Elmo type. The original plastic hub would be needed for the 12 toothed plastic pulley to the rear but then the front of the new hubs would appear the same as the HTI upgraded ones, made of stainless steel preferably and containing a slot for the locking tab. All i would do different, is make a sprung locking tab like the Elmo design and would prefer three location dowels instead of just the one as in the existing HTI design.

So a message to Maurice and anyone else for that matter who may be interested in the new improved ones of the future, keep any old ones you may have as these can be used to fit the new front stainless hub to if the design works well. I have my old one and that is what I shall use as the prototype to trial before making a batch of new hub adaptors.

Lee, I have no idea what you had to keep throwing money at on these machines. Most of the components are top quality as you would expect at nearly two and half grand in the early 90's.
Maybe yours had been well used perhaps before you got it?
What model type was it?

[ July 02, 2014, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 06, 2014 06:20 AM

Just sent payment to Wittner for two spindles, came to total GBP £219.00 including postage and German VAT of 19%.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted July 06, 2014 01:43 PM

Not cheap Maurice, as said. You will be gobsmacked when you see what you get for all that money! Still, if you need them, then you need them no matter what the cost I suppose.As said, at least it is a machine well worthy of spending the money on [Smile]

Don't forget to keep your old knackered ones Maurice, they may be needed for the future upgraded ones all being well!

[ July 06, 2014, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 10, 2014 11:26 AM

UPS just delivered my Wittner parcel. Opened with baited breath, removed all the super packing material to reveal two white boxes. Gingerly removed the spindles.

Opened storage cupboard to remove 2200' Beaulieu spool and a 1200' Elmo (both thin alloy spoked).

Joy upon Joy.

Spools slipped onto the spindles, well, slightly tight, but they did slip on with a satisfying click as the retaining clips returned. Other spools passed the test!

As I have had the 700 EL CD for four years I will be taking it to my service engineer for a check-over and lubrication. As I don't seem to have such a small screwdriver that is necessary he will also remove the old spindles and fit the new ones.

The old ones will be retained in the hope that Andrew will be able to supply replacements which he has mentioned.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted July 10, 2014 03:27 PM

I am really pleased you are satisfied with them Maurice. I reported when I fitted mine that they are a really nice snug fit when they are brand new and clearly you have found yours to be the same Maurice. Keep using the reels I mentioned and they will stay that way Maurice.

You will love the machine with the large reels once your repair man has serviced it. There is no better experience in Super 8mm screening than seeing an entire feature from start to finish with no reel changes. Just like being at the cinema!

It's really good that you are keeping the old ones Maurice and I will keep you posted in the Autumn after the holiday season as to how I am getting along regarding the upgrades [Smile]

Ps:- As well as everything else, get your repair man to lubricate the nylon shutter cam with Molycote Dow Corning grease using a syringe(see FFR Filmtecknik or Van Eck for grading).
This will keep the picture rock steady on these machines and stop any premature wear to the cam if it hasn't been serviced for some time. Very easily accessed once main motor has been removed, which again is really simple to do so on these machines.

[ July 11, 2014, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 11, 2014 06:16 AM

Thank you, Andrew, for all the information. It's very useful as the Beaulieu manual, although extensive, makes no mention of lubrication.

I think the Beaulieu service manual suffers from loss in translation. I must admit that I thought their reference to two ball-bearings was rather odd. I see that each spindle has a ball race which contains nine ball bearings, perhaps they meant one unit for each spindle. We'll never know.

[ July 11, 2014, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Maurice Leakey ]

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Maurice

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted July 11, 2014 03:01 PM

Also, Maurice, when the spindles are removed, check the washers inside the arms for wear.

The originals are felt and can degrade and clog the mechanism.

It's fairly easy to find nylon replacements from DIY stores if they have worn; you just need to remove the old ones, clean it all up and super glue the new ones in place.

It becomes obvious once you have the arm covers off!

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 12, 2014 03:45 AM

Rob

Thanks for your comment.

When I had an L516 the take-up arm had a felt washer which needed to be kept saturated with oil, this was to allow the spindle to slip when a large spool was becoming full. If left to dry out the spool would sometimes snatch the film.

Does the felt washer and any part of the Beaulieu spindle assembly, or shaft, need any lubrication?

Whilst the service manual is quite good it does not cover lubrication. Can I get such details anywhere?

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted July 19, 2014 02:17 AM

Maurice, I don't think the felt washers were ever intended to be lubricated however it would do no harm whatsoever if you lightly greased the two ball bearings using alvania grease between inner and outer races of the bearings.
Don't over pack the bearings with grease as this will shorten the life of the bearings but a small amount will lengthen the life of your new investments.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted July 22, 2014 06:06 PM

Has your service engineer done the work on your Beaulieu 708EL yet Maurice?

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted July 23, 2014 07:02 AM

I take projectors for servicing about every six months. There is a batch away at the moment, so only when I go to collect will the Beaulieu go with me.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted July 23, 2014 08:15 AM

Oh ok Maurice, keep us posted then please upon it's return [Smile]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted September 10, 2014 04:39 AM

Andrew
My Beaulieu 708EL (with many other projectors) is now with my engineer who will be giving it a general service and fitting the new spindles.
It may be some time before my projectors are slotted into his schedules but I will further report later.
I have asked for the return of the old spindles in the hope that your possible manufacturing venture comes to fruision.

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Maurice

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