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Author Topic: what to do with red prints?
Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 31, 2013 07:40 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Red prints have no marks on them because nobody ever watches them a 2nd time! [Smile]
I hate red prints. And I really hate when you last watch a film and the color is decent and then you put it up and find it has faded! Grrr!
That happened to my "Fists of Fury" print on Super 8. But...not all the reels. However if all I have is a red print.. I'll still watch it. But I will be disgruntled!

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted January 31, 2013 08:40 PM      Profile for Timothy Ramzyk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I suppose I think along Shorty's train of thought that perhaps
a bath of blue dye, then yellow would help towards restoring
the colours ( if this were possible, remember this is wishful thinking ) or maybe a tinted projection lamp perhaps in conjunction with a certain filter.

Well, I'm afraid it's a matter of not being able to retrieve whats gone for good. A color film image is part due to the original exposure, and partly due to chemical reactions that bring those colors out of the the film. When those colors fade away, they just aren't there to be retrieved any longer.

That's why red prints are not only lacking color, but appear lighter and flat, with a decreased range of contrast.

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted February 01, 2013 02:10 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
No I was just thinking of a "paint" job Tim, if it could be done,
a bit of wishful thinking, I realise once the original dyes have
faded, that's as they say in the game of rugby league "sine die"
pardon the pun, but who knows what marvels lie in store in the
world of chemistry.

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 01, 2013 02:47 AM      Profile for Timothy Ramzyk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's a funny thing, most mediums hit their peak just as they fall into permanent decline. There is a world of difference between the image quality capable on the first laserdisc, VHS, DVD... from the last. Same held true for film, those eventual low-fade stocks that Derann used in the last 10 years waay out-shined the 80's Super color titles I bought, and they will no doubt outlast them all in color.

It's sounds like technology in reverse, but as I suggested earlier, it would probably be possible now, to strike beautiful LLP Super 8 prints with a digital HD exposure, there's just no economic incentive to develop such a process, though in the long run it would probably boil the cost of making prints down to just a matter of the positive film-stock.

If I were a wealthy man, I'd love to finance such an experiment, but alas, I can even afford to dream about it.

[Wink]

[ February 01, 2013, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Timothy Ramzyk ]

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted February 01, 2013 11:16 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry, but I don't get wanting to sit through red prints.

Why?

As film fans, we should be looking to watch the best versions available.

I've many faded prints (pink / brown) that I still enjoy; often they are a good reference for DVD and Blu-ray releases, sometimes even having better shadow detail, etc., despite the fade.

But why anyone would want to torment themselves with a red print of a film that is available elsewhere with decent colour, to me, is just crazy.

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 01, 2013 11:25 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Call me crazy - Like throwing out an old comic book because the colors fade? You can't always buy another and if you do, it will be at a premium - You can't (unless you're well-financed), always buy another print of a rare film - Then, how is it, on some Eastman stock (travelogues, as example), I cracked open the original cellophane on some, and the prints looks as good as when it was manufactured near forty years past; Vibrant, Spectacular and True - I ramble on - Would never throw out an old recording, just because it's worn, nor an old toy because it don't work - There is some value to all these as well as red prints - You don't hear of a 16 collector tossing a grainy original of a Hal Roach short, just to get a Dupont - Point is, my opinion, keep them - Shorty - And yes, cyan filtering helps

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted February 01, 2013 11:49 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe, I'm nostalgic too, but red prints, especially 16mm were made to serve a purpose and that purpose is done. (I'm not talking about rare or valuable prints).

The film lives on in new, better versions, so why hoard it?

If new versions weren't genuinely better (like throwing out film and replacing it with VHS, for example) I'd understand, but so much hard work has gone into providing new, better versions of films that worn out old prints have now served their purpose and to keep hold of them, to me, seems just somehow retentive.

I'm a big film advocate and I still love my vinyl record collection, so I'm not in the habit of dumping old technology for new, but there is a great A.A. Milne quote (from Winnie The Pooh, if I'm not mistaken) which I tend use as a judge of hoarding;

"If it isn't broke, don't fix it...if it is very broke, don't fix it either"...

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted February 01, 2013 02:53 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If it can be found, (as it was on this forum years ago), there actually was a patended process by which color was supposed to be able to be corrected on fading film. I remember seeing the drawings for the machine, (from the original patent paperwork, I think).

Now, I don't know if anyone was ever able to construct this "box", but what I believe it was was some form of chemical bath that was supposed to either restore, re-balance or re-apply the missing layers that have faded.

(Now, I know that there will be a mad dash by some on here to try to retrieve that series of posts, but it was rather interesting).

While I would of course be in favor of this kind of machine being built and used, (could you imagine the business this person would get from collectors who want to restore precious prints?!) ... but I do have a thought on this ...

Someone has mentioned, not too far back that, while you may be able to restore a layer that has been compromised, would you also be able to restore the "contrast" and such of that layer which, If I understand correctly, is a characteristic of that specific color layer?

Thoughts folks?

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 01, 2013 03:06 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I've many faded prints (pink / brown) that I still enjoy;
Nope. For me, these are just as bad as fully red prints.

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 01, 2013 03:18 PM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I understand, just gonna keep my 6 red prints, all 200' and I don't think that will bother anyone - Even if I look for new ones (again, getting more difficult), will still keep these out of dabbling with the idea of restorative process. Remember, I was one who started the thread of a direct correlation between tobacco smoke and VS...Shorty, the village idiot

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009


 - posted February 01, 2013 03:34 PM      Profile for Christian Bjorgen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael, if they bother you, I have a nice place for you to keep them stored, it's called: MY HOUSE! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted February 01, 2013 04:47 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Christian,

I don't have any, but, should I run into any they're yours.

[Smile]

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1482
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009


 - posted February 01, 2013 04:53 PM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was going to say as outspoken as you are Michael about faded and red prints I didn't think you had any!

Bill [Smile]

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 02, 2013 02:31 AM      Profile for Timothy Ramzyk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Osi Osgood - If it can be found, (as it was on this forum years ago), there actually was a patended process by which color was supposed to be able to be corrected on fading film. I remember seeing the drawings for the machine, (from the original patent paperwork, I think).
I remember hearing a whiff of this elsewhere a few years back, but then I never heard anything about it again. I'd think studios, and archives would have been very eager to get such a process off the ground for problematic elements, where other means of restoration were not feasible due to fading.

For this to be possible the must be some sort of record of the faded color still in the emulsion, or the initial exposure, that isn't visible to the naked eye, but that can be brought out with chemistry. Almost as if you were "re-developing" a lost color.

I'd love for it to be true, and I'd love to see a before and after demo, but I also think if it were true I would have? Maybe if it can be done it's so laborious that treating thousands of feet of film isn't feasible?

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted February 02, 2013 08:33 AM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My "Kelly's Heroes" has gone a bit on the brownish side, but still watchable.

Its not only films that have a problem, some of my early 'laserdiscs' have got laser rot you can see where on the surface its gone blotchy, thinking of making them in to wall clocks [Big Grin] because they will not play now. At least with faded/red film priits they are still watchable.

Just think all these restored films that a now digital, proberly on large hard discs, even when not used they fail.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Joe Caruso
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 02, 2013 09:01 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Digital isn't always safe either, eventually there will be micro-digitized chips (ultra-ray) - All I'm saying is keep the old prints on the side, why not? Doesn't hurt anything - At least it's a reminder as to what film stock WAS like (Eastman as example)

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted February 02, 2013 09:39 AM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Rob, there's also another slant on that old saying, "If it isn't
broken, break it", ala Tony Blair & the Labour Party.
There's no way that I would throw a red print of a favoured film,
at least not until it could be replaced with better, and I STILL
have DVD as back up.No with the application of a couple of
gels, they can still be enjoyed.

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 02, 2013 10:44 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Again, Cheers to Hugh

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Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted February 02, 2013 12:19 PM      Profile for Chris Fries     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sometimes owing faded film has to do with cost. All of my 16mm feature prints have some degree of fade. Would I rather have them on LPP instead of Eastman? Sure, but I know they would cost more.

I bought these films because I wanted them and the price was right. I also knew I would have no problem watching them with a cyan filter.

As for those who don't like fade or filters, I understand. It's all subjective. Like when I was buying laserdiscs instead of VHS in the early 90's. It was usually the only way I could get a letter-boxed version of a movie. Then there was the flip side. When I worked in a music store in 1993, I had to special order full frame LD's for a guy who "hated those black bars".

To each his own.

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted February 02, 2013 12:26 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Has anyone ever seen an explanation of the chemical breakdown that happens with dye losses? Do the mutant substances just evaporate into thin air, or are they still incorporated into the emulsion, albeit clear? If the latter, too bad there is no known calalyst to rejoin the broken molecules.

I think Larry Arpin was looking into something like this at one time, but if it were that easy, you'd think it would've been done already. Either that, or someday Larry could become very rich (he'd like that, I'm sure!).

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David Ollerearnshaw
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1373
From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted February 02, 2013 01:22 PM      Profile for David Ollerearnshaw   Author's Homepage   Email David Ollerearnshaw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chris Thought all Laserdisc
quote:
Then there was the flip side
had a flip side [Big Grin] I bought the Phillps early version very cheap (waffle iron) The one now is Pioneer that plays both PAL/NTSC/CD I watched a couple of film, mainly to see if it still worked. It does and a big plus they look like film. Like I said some won't play now.

My 16mm "Where Eagles Dare" the snows getting a pinky tint. And its one of my favourites got it on 8/16/beta/vhs/laser/dvd/blu-ray. The blu-ray is not much improvement over dvd. My 16mm is flat though.

I would NEVER EVER throw a print away.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 02, 2013 02:02 PM      Profile for Timothy Ramzyk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Has anyone ever seen an explanation of the chemical breakdown that happens with dye losses? Do the mutant substances just evaporate into thin air, or are they still incorporated into the emulsion, albeit clear? If the latter, too bad there is no known calalyst to rejoin the broken molecules.
Well, any film would fade it were exposed to light indefinitely, but as most are only illuminated for one 24th of a second, that's not what's going on. They fade in the dark, which to me says chemical instability.

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