8mm Forum: Perforations are OK but film is shaking, what is this?

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Topic: Perforations are OK but film is shaking, what is this?

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 11:52 AM

I have some reels that are seen visually good, no broken perforations but when I played them pictures are unsteady.

How to deal with this?

thanks

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Winbert

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Dan A. Caprio
Film Handler

Posts: 71
From: sarasota florida
Registered: Jun 2010

posted February 11, 2013 12:21 PM

Most probable cause is "shrunken film"...Sounds like you need a treatment such as "film renew" or similar produt... should make the print run more smoothy thru the gate.
Dan

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 12:54 PM

is this from when the films were copied I have a few like that its almost like when they were making copies the copier was not steady. just a thought.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Zechariah Sporre
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 557
From: Ladysmith, WI U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2010

posted February 11, 2013 01:09 PM

I 've had a couple films that have done the same thing and I've cleaned them with Film Renew and have had no more problems.

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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness

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Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010

posted February 11, 2013 02:11 PM

I have soaked film in FilmRenew for a few days with good results. This was old 8mm film that had turned brittle and shrunk a little. It was so bad I couldn't make a cement splice without the film crumbling. I was easily able to splice it after soaking it for two days. Make sure you don't have tape splices, they will dissolve. Also use a metal reel.

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted February 11, 2013 02:13 PM

I had a film that was unplayable on my GS1200 but was fine on my ST1200. It was acetate.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 02:28 PM

I have a couple that are as steady as a rock on my Eumig but weave around considerably with my Elmos. The inside edges of the sprocket holes keep sneaking in and out of frame. My best guess is the slitting isn't consistent and the Elmo's spring loaded gate is pressing an uneven edge up against the unsprung side, making the film move in and out as it gets wider and narrower.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 03:13 PM

Thanks guys, I think I will give a try with "Film renew".

BTW, can a shipping company take liquid products to cross the country?

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Winbert

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 04:00 PM

I hate to ring this old bell again, but I have found that rewinding the film through Armor-All Protectant wipes, does wonders on shrunken and unsteady prints. Plus it does a pretty good job of cleaning and lubricating the film.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 04:43 PM

quote:
I hate to ring this old bell again,

Paul, I noticed our old discussion back in 2004 (9 years ago!!!).

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000579;p=1

Did you still use Johnson's to lubricate film or did you find something negative with it? I may give a try too, as the one shaking now is not really expensive film.

ps: other who do not agree please do not attack this idea. Everyone take their own risk.

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Winbert

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Zechariah Sporre
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 557
From: Ladysmith, WI U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2010

posted February 11, 2013 06:41 PM

Correction on comment. I use Film Guard not Film Renew. I know everybody sells it in such large quantity and it's kinda expensive and a small quantity of this stuff lasts a long time. So if you want a smaller quantity I could probably find a bottle and ship some to you.

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There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 11, 2013 08:27 PM

Hi Winbert,
Yes I have been using the Armor All wipes for about 8 years now and have seen no bad side effects on any of my films or my projectors. I stopped using the Johnsons furniture wax on the films, as I found the Armor-All wipes did a much better job of both cleaning and lubricating the film. The Armor all wipes contain some silicone and some water. My theory is that the water swells the film base a bit, helping to fill in the fine scratches, and offsetting some of the shrinkage. The silicone does a grat job of making the film more slippery. I have found that old shrunken films, which jitter around like crazy going through the projector, can be restored to smooth running with a couple of rewinds through the ArmorAll wipes.
To each his own though - we all have our preferences when it comes to cleaning and lubing film.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Laksmi Breathwaite
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 771
From: Las Vegas
Registered: Nov 2010

posted February 11, 2013 10:59 PM

Can "Film renew" help heavy abrasions on film the dreaded blue lines?

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" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1060
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010

posted February 12, 2013 12:19 AM

Laksmi,

Film Renew will not make and blue or green lines better. As a cleaner, it softens superficial lines put on by dirty projector parts, cleans and lubricates, it's mostly used as a conditioner for shrunken (or warped) film.

Win,

If you don't have Film Renew (which should be air dried the same number of days it was soaked), you can always put the print on a "S" wind (with Film Guard) and leave it tails out on another reel for a month. You can see results after a couple of weeks on some prints that are not shrunken to badly.

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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted February 12, 2013 06:04 AM

1/On the really old acetate shrunken 8mm prints I always use Film Renew and whatever it’s made of I have found a good application then overnight soak in, finally run film through a clean lint free cloth does the trick.

2/I know some collectors also leave acetate short films on the reels un rewound to help avoid repeated tightening of the last 50ft shrinking over the years.

3/Has always been an annoyance to me when we obtain a film where the end has been pushed into the reels slot. This although handy when making ready to rewind a film does create a curl thus widening that part on the spool finally making for a uneven rewind. It’s much better to hold the end of the film around the spool core and hand wind the film back a few feet before hitting the rewind button.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

posted February 12, 2013 11:28 AM

Has anyone soaked a film in FilmRenew to improve brittleness, then treated it with FilmGuard to improve light lines?

If it all weren't so $$$...

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 12, 2013 11:39 AM

What gets me is the odd film that projects fine but overflows the same reel when I rewind it.

I think a little film lubrication would fix this by letting the layers of film slip on each other and tighten down more as the rewind is in progress.

Has anybody seen this work?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Bruce Wright
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 140
From: Denham Springs, La.
Registered: Oct 2011

posted February 12, 2013 04:05 PM

Paul
Read your post and the older one. Having never cleaned nor lubed a film I thought the Armor All wipes may best meet my
skills. You suggest a couple of rewinds for this procedure.
Is this a clean/lube and show or is there a drying time.
Some of my films are a little jittery.

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Bruce Wright

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 13, 2013 01:30 PM

The ArmorAll wipe needs to be moist, but not dripping wet. You can project immediately after treatment.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

posted February 15, 2013 05:00 PM

Just projected my 3x400 Walton print of "Way out West", and noticed the same issues!

No perforation issues, a few splices (but they are all perfectly fine) and nothing visually wrong with the film what so ever. But still, shaking like mad and nearly unprojectable on my GS-800. I only projected the first part of reel one, but I spent pretty much the entire 200' pressing the loop creator to create a steady picture, but to no avail, it kept jumping!

However with the ST-180, no issues. Hopefully, it will project nice on the ST-1200 when I get it on a single reel, because it's one of my favorites!

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted February 16, 2013 07:54 AM

What you are experiencing Chris ,and I would imagine Winbert's
the same, known as a "green print",one that hasn't had any
lubrication and causes stutter in the gate.In the day it was put
down to being a brand new print and one that needed a bit of
lubrication.Attention must always be on the gate guides too, as
these do wear and cause prints to have frameline movement.
Removal and polishing is the solution to that one.A simple way
to see if your print is in need of lubrication, is to put a piece
of fluffless cloth, I use chamois leather,soaked in whatever
lubricant you favour, and wax the film while projecting, if the
"stuttering" stops, them that has been the problem.

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Christian Bjorgen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 996
From: Kvinnherad, Norway
Registered: Oct 2009

posted February 16, 2013 01:54 PM

Yeah, I think you're quite right, Hugh.

I should really get my hands on some lubricant and treat the prints affected. So far, "Way Out West" in the only print on which I have experienced this issue as bad as this. On other prints it's maybe one or two stutters along the reel, but here it's all the time.

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Well who’s on first? Yeah. Go ahead and tell me. Who. The guy on first. Who. The guy playin’ first base. Who. The guy on first. Who is on first! What are you askin’ me for? I’m askin’ you!

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012

posted February 16, 2013 02:18 PM

Where are you getting "the dreaded blue lines" Laksmi?

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Greg Marshall
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 612
From: Nashville, TN USA
Registered: Sep 2008

posted February 18, 2013 10:18 AM

If all else fails... give your film a Xanax... it will stop shaking I bet. [Roll Eyes]

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 19, 2013 09:55 AM

quote:
give your film a Xanax... it will stop shaking I bet

...but while your film is playing don't turn your vinyl with Michael Jackson's tune on...it's gonna shake again ("Shake Your Body") [Wink]

cheers,

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Winbert

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